Managing Micromanagement

In this episode of Grossly Competent, hosts Steve and Patrick delve into the world of Micromanagement, where one can either die a hero amongst their teams or live long enough to see themselves become the villain.

• What is Micromanagement?
• Why would someone decide to Micromanage?
• What are the signs, implications, and effects of being Micromanaged and being the Micromanager?
• And what techniques can be used to either thwart being Micromanaged or becoming the Micromanager?

But before all that serious stuff, Steve and Patrick chat about an old clip of longtime friend of the show* Matt Damon. They also share their most recent forays into media success, one of which appearing on the esteemed The Missing Piece podcast with April Reed and the other demonstrating his prowess as someone that Lives Nearby.

(*This has not been verified as true... nor false. Just saying. - Steve)

Here are some links for all you beautiful people:

• The Missing Piece with April Reed featuring Steve Counsell
• Patrick Lives Nearby with Bedroom Eyes
• Matt Damon Defends Teachers
• Psychology Says Employees May Call In Sick Not Because They're Too Ill to Work, but to Avoid Micromanaging Boss or Unsupportive Colleagues

Come for the chat, stay for the laughs, and run from our faces: we're Grossly Competent.

Hey friends, we love doing this, and if you like what you’re hearing and want to support the show, here are the best ways possible: 

• Give a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts,
• Visit us on Buzzsprout at grosslycompetent.buzzsprout.com. 
• Give us a shout on Instagram @grosslycompetent

We appreciate you for listening!

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hello, and welcome to Grossly Competent, the learning, development, and adulting podcast that does not claim to be pretty. No, but we will happily pretend to be slightly competent. I am your host, Steve Countl, and I'm joined by my co-host, a man that tests the boundaries of the phrase, if looks could kill, Mr. Patrick Ayleshire.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Damn right. You know, I don't always know where Steve is going, but I do know it'll take longer than expected.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

God, no truer words. No truer words. Man, you give me one sentence and I'll give you a novel. Well, folks, we're so glad you have decided to come by and visit us for this fine episode today. We have lots of wonderful things to get to. But first, you know what we need to get to, Mr. Patrick. Who is our sponsor of the week?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

This episode is sponsored by Houseplants with high expectations. Too much water? Dead. Too little water, also dead. Slightly moved three feet closer to a window. Believe it or not, dead. House plants with high expectations. Keeping guilt green all year long.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Wow. Thanks, big houseplants with high expectations. Uh I really am with you on that. Like I don't understand it. I don't understand how anybody can keep plants alive. Like, I I don't know. Like, I I do try my best, and I can keep them alive to a degree, but then somebody that just really has that knack, it's just I don't know what it is. Like, I I don't know. Are you a plant person? I have one. It is so the answer's no.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I have one and it is currently alive, and I have kept it alive for over a year because it was a birthday gift last year.

unknown 2:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Now, if you're in my family and you gave me three plants for my birthday last year, I have one plant currently, and that plant is alive.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Oh, 33% chance.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So you're telling me there's a chance.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Um I I I really am not making fun. Like, honest to goodness. Yes, we have really small plants, like tucked in by like the kitchen and whatnot, but nothing overly wild and crazy. My wife, God love her, she can't keep a plant alive if it was like the foundation of like her own sustenance. Like, she just she can't do it. It is it got to the point that I started buying her Lego flowers and plants so she could just build those and put them around the house. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, and she she likes building them anyway. Like, it's something fun for her and my son to do because he likes Lego. Um, but just kind of a funny thing that now, if you venture into my house, you might come across some. As a matter of fact, you can maybe barely see it right there, Mr. Patrick. I'm pointing. Yep. Yeah, that is a uh Lego succulent. Uh you, good sir, you are really famous. I think I think we may need to talk about something. Have you been have you been cheating the media circuit? Uh is that what you've been doing?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

I I you know it it had been a while since I was on the news. It'd been about six months, so I figured it was time to re-up. Now, unfortunately, this isn't this situation was not something I necessarily planned to be on the news for, really wanted to be on the news, but uh yeah, and there was I was walking my dog uh during a little stretch break at work the other day, and I came across a uh a news van that was outside the uh park down the street from me. And they were uh unfortunately they were filming and just kind of looking around because there was a uh an accident there the night before. A um bus coach bus had uh hit an 84-year-old gentleman who was riding his bike and unfortunately the the man the man died. And so I had just walking past her and I I live like a block or two away. And I had been over there, I had been over there like half hour before that happened, um, the night before. And so I just was chatting with the cameraman actually about just like oh the situation, and so they said, Oh, would you like to be on the news? And sure. So they and a break rapid firing, like five or six questions, and I'm glad they cut most of it because I I was not prepared for all their questions. Oh, interesting. And so I just I kind of stumbled through a few of them, and fortunately they cut those out. But yeah, it was uh it's like, you know, why not? Like I'll I'll happy to uh local resident answer some questions, and it ended up being I I kind of forgot about it to be honest, like later that day, because it was like mid-morning.

unknown 5:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

I didn't know I didn't know if it was gonna be on, when it was gonna be on. I don't really watch like DLCs a lot. And so later that afternoon, I got a text from my sister, and she said, Hey, my neighbor just texted me. Is your brother Blah blah Patrick from Milwaukee? Yeah, yeah. She's like, he was just on the news. So I was like, oh yeah. So I had to go back and look it up, and sure enough, yeah, I had a like my 10 to 15 seconds of fame.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Oh my you're giving yourself way too much credit. What I find, and so you are correct, and I folks, I am not trying to make light of a tragedy. Like, I'm not trying to make light of somebody's passing by all by any stretch of the imagination. So please do not take any of this as such. What I found so funny is you just happen to be near. They're like, oh, we got a resident expert. What you have legs, you've walked near this area. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Well, they when I was chatting with them, you know, oh I said, Oh, I actually I was actually over here last night. Oh, do you see it? I'm like, no, it was like half hour before. But I saw something on I saw something on it was like on Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Oh, what was uh anyone know what's going on down by Cathedral Square? Oh what well I need to know that I live down there. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

And then I said, well, I live up the street a couple blocks away, and oh, cool, let's let's talk to this guy. But I said something like, Do you have a podcast? And I said, Yes, grossly competent. It's wherever you get your podcast, and that didn't make that didn't make the news.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

So weird. That is what I texted you when you shot me the message. I was like, I would have given you seven dollars if you just said anything about grossly competent. Like, I'm definitely gonna be talking about this on grossly competent. But I so yes, I get why I I get why they spoke to you, right? Like, I I totally get that. And it's just to me, what I found so funny is it's like, oh, you were you were in that area uh half an hour prior, along with thousands of other people. You just so happen to be like, oh, a newsman, I've ever seen what's up. Like it's so like I don't know. I just I found that so funny, and I probably laughed way too hard to the point that I I started, I was like crying, I was laughing, right, watching this clip because like underneath your name, it's like lives locally or something like residently or something. I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

My brother-in-law, not not the famous Joe, my other brother-in-law was like, dude, you're out there plugging your dog, talking about living locally, and this guy dies, got gets drilled by a bus and dies, and you're out there, my dog Cellie.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

You know, normally at this point in time, I'd want to settle down with a nice non-alcoholic beverage. Thank goodness for zero proof pass. Folks, what we're trying to tell you is you need to capitalize any moment you get. So I was over here.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

I was half I was uh over here about half an hour before it happened, after I was done flipping through my zero proof pass. I can't believe this tragedy happened. Terrible.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Well, I what I was saying about when I was watching this clip and I was laughing, it was just because of like because obviously I know you, and it just to me there's the absurdity of like, yeah, okay, you live locally and you happen to be near there once during this time. Like, it's so random, right? And I was laughing to this, and I was like, oh, to my wife, I'm like, you gotta, you gotta watch this, and she's expecting like some hilarious clip. And I didn't really think it through. It obviously starts out like it's somber, like it's a it's a tragedy, like that something happened to this poor individual, and she looks at me with the most disdain possible, like, how gross of a person are you? And the answer is well, my face is gross. But then she saw you and she's like, Oh, okay, and I had to explain her. I'm like, I was and explained exactly what I just did to all of you, so I won't repeat it 58 times, but it just made me chuckle, is really what it came down to, and chuckle with tears running down my face. So yeah, so if you had any um any questions about my morals, um I don't I don't have them, but it just it it made me smile. But you want to know what else made me smile. Yes, I do. It's a really weird segue. Um, uh, this was like what three, four days ago, was it, that I sent you. Uh you mentioned Reddit, so I'm gonna mention Reddit. Um, I was perusing Reddit, and I saw a really old clip of Matt Damon uh being interviewed. I did not know this, but he comes from um his uh I don't know if both of his parents, but at least his mother is a teacher or was a teacher.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And the clip, uh, I can't remember what somebody posted it as. It's something like uh shout out to the time that Matt Damon stood up for teachers' rights or something like that. Um, I will make sure I put this in the show notes because it is awesome and it's something that you and I have talked about, but I'm gonna kind of paraphrase some of it. The interview, if you will, it only lasts like a minute or so, it's not very long. But the interviewer poses this question to Matt Damon as he is standing next to his mother. They are at this rally trying to uphold like teachers' rights and like and give them more money and stuff like that, like for teachers' union. And the interviewer says something along the lines of like, Well, you're an actor, and it's important for you to set yourself apart from other actors, like so you have an incentive to be as good of an actor as you can be. Well, shouldn't the same apply for teachers? Yeah, and his response is awesome. He just deadpan looks right at he goes, You think insecure or job insecurity is what fuels my acting? Like, you think I'm so terrified of not getting another gig that that's the motivator, not like because I love doing this or something like that. And that's what he follows it with is like you you do realize that teachers make shit for a salary, right? Like they do this because they genuinely love what they do, they love working with students, they love watch people learn, and you're out here trying to like commoditize make it a commodity there. Uh but the the greatest kickback is when the cameraman of all people, the cameraman's like, I've got this, I'm gonna chime in now. Wow, okay. The cameraman says he makes up a stat. Like, and it's legitimately made up. He's like, Well, 10% of every of all teachers are bad. So they don't deserve this raise or like this increase in salary. And Matt Damon looks at me, he's like, Wait, what? What do you how do you know that? How do you know 10% of all teachers are bad? He's like, Well, 10% of any profession is bad. And his response is uh, well, maybe you're a shitty cameraman, but I don't know that. I mean, it's it's awesome. Now that you have the play-by-play, now you have to watch the actual video and go, wow, Steve's terrible at recapping video. Um, but it is so awesome. And you and I were actually just talking off-air about teaching. And so it's one of those things that just was very fresh in my mind of huh, okay, kind of cool. I don't know. It just it brought me a smile, and I love it because I think teachers are amazing. Um, present company excluded, of course, Patrick, obviously. Um, no, genuinely, teachers are the foundation of every great aspect of our of our country and and the world and whatnot. Uh, we really should we should be much better to our teachers. Yes. Absolutely. That's my soapbox.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Um Matt Damon went to school.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

No.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Harvard.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Oh. I feel like I did know that.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Because I toured Harvard when I was in Baston. Uh took a little took a little tour as like a kind of a touristy thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, I know it wasn't for for going to school.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Oh god, no. That was not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

That was that was such a dick move.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

That was great. Absolutely. No, that's awesome though. Yeah, 2024, I think I was there, and it's kind of neat, just so like they point they point out like that was his dorm room, and you're like, oh, wow. Just imagine like walking around campus with knowing not knowing that the person that you're in the dorms with is gonna be a very famous actor.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, and that it's pretty wild. Yeah. Everybody you pass could be somebody special. Maybe, maybe you happen to be walking by and you see a news van and you turn into someone special right there. Just saying.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Perhaps you and I individually are walking down the streets and someone's like, that guy could be a famous podcaster somebody. I don't know about his face, but he's definitely got a face for podcasting.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Oh yeah. Yeah. They're like, wow, I I've I've seen that face before. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I have like in a puddle of mud. That's where I've seen that. All right. Did uh anything wild and cra besides your your let's call it four seconds of fame. Besides your four seconds of fame, any other cool things happened to you this week?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

No, I just had one random LinkedIn message uh actually this morning. Oh uh a plug for they wanted they wanted to know if it was if I some uh the gist was if do I struggle with getting clients to sign up for XYZ? Whatever that I'm apparently peddling. Uh and I had I saw a post that I I sent to you the other day. I thought was great. I don't know who the person was, but I was like, that's really funny. I I think it was just like something that came up because someone else I fought how LinkedIn works, someone else I followed, liked it or commented on it. So I was like, oh, it's pretty good. So I'm like Steve will like this. And this guy that posted this thing said basically, for me to like navigate and figure out who is a bot, who's not, I will in my messages now I will respond before I answer their question out. My first response will be By the way, were you on season, let's say, 10 of America's Got Town or American Idol or one of those things or whatever. Yeah, and they and then I see what they say. He goes, Because if it's a bot, they ignore the question and then they just keep talking. But if it's an actual person, they will say they'll chuckle or they'll like we'll get into some fun little dialogue before we get into the conversation. So I use that today with my response. I am waiting on pins. Oh, I was just saying they are responding, but I think it's a good idea.

unknown 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, I I so I I know I've certainly brought up like my little techniques, but at the same time, I I mean mine are definitely more cruel. I mean, they're more vindictive, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at. Um, but that one I feel like has a great way of actually fostering a like a decent relationship with somebody if it's used correctly. Like if it's an actual human being and you drop that, they kind of get a chuckle like, no, it's not me. Okay, like fair enough, but because you never know. Never knew was on the other side of the city.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

If the bot does respond, I then I can go to your angle and then fire off. So it takes a quick little.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

See? Ooh, it's a two-tiered system.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I like that. I like that a lot. That's awesome. All right, man. So uh there is something that I don't know. Uh definitely the algorithms are listening to me. And I assume they listen to you too, right? I um I stumbled on an article about I don't know, a couple days ago, something like that. And it was an article from The Economic Times, and I I kid you not, this is the name of the article. Psychology says employees may call in sick not because they're too ill to work, but to avoid micromanaging boss or unsupportive colleagues. And I I swear to you, that is the name.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

It I don't think it's long enough.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

I'm like, what wow, that's not a snippet title. That's like this is the first sentence of what I did on my summer vacation. Like, no, man. Um, all right, so I guess it still caught my attention because I was like, hmm, I love psychology things. I love, I'm fascinated by this topic, and I have had micromanaging bosses before, so you've roped me.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

I love this topic already because micromanagers are the worst.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

We haven't even started talking yet, but I'm already pumped up.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Well, and that's genuinely what I want to talk about. I want to talk about micromanagers. But um, there were I'm going to admit, this this article is not great. Like, I bet it was probably some AI-generated BS, but they did reference a study, which they they link to so you can kind of dig into it a little bit. And there were some very interesting aspects of the study itself. I mean, dude, the study, the basis of the study is, and this is me paraphrasing, are people more likely to call in when work sucks? Yeah. Yep. That's the answer. Like, what you needed to do a study on that. But they, of course, they took their data and they dug in further and further. And these were some of the stats that they were able to glean from that information. So there were three of them that it pointed out. Problems with a supervisor increased the likelihood of taking sick leave by more than 3.5 times. So I thought, oh, fascinating. This Second one was problems with colleagues increased the likelihood by nearly 4.7. So there was actually more gravitas towards employ like colleagues. The last one, and I think this probably ties in mostly with like everything, and that is anticipating a very stressful work situation more than doubled the likelihood of reporting sick. And these compounded onto each other. So I was like, oh, that's wild. Like that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Those stats very uh may very well be accurate. I mean, I wouldn't personally want to come to work all that often if I felt smothered by a leader. And that second one regarding the problems with colleagues, I think that makes sense as well, because there's just definitely so much added stress in the workplace when you have to walk on eggshells. Oh god, you're you're uh not only maybe concerned about your micromanager, but other colleagues who might be acting similarly, or they're nervous, you're nervous, things just kind of come up that maybe the communication isn't there because no one wants to say anything, because they're worried about that. So I can yeah, I can definitely see that being an issue.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, and that's one of the things that drew me to this. Like despite just the art, and I will put the article in the show notes, uh, read at your own risk. Like it's mediocre, dude. Like it really is. Like, if you have even the semblance of critical thinking skills, you'd be like, Yep, cool. But I did at least appreciate some of the data that it was producing. I thought that part was interesting, but just like the the bantering commentary, like, yeah, man, yeah, it's you just so clearly said if something sucks, people don't want to interact with it. Wow, who knew? Like, that's so crazy. But neither here nor there, that was really one of the things I wanted to kind of focus on. That's something that I feel like we have not really touched on on this podcast, and that is we talk about being a good leader, we talk about what it means to run an effective team. Like, we've had those conversations, but we've never really talked about the converse side of that being micromanagement, which is such a toxic, corrosive experience for the person that is micromanaging and for the individual being micromanaged. So I just thought it would be worth us like, you know, what is so for anybody out there listening, if they're going, well, what what is micromanaging? Like, I thought we could kind of start with having that conversation, like, what is it? And then, like, why does somebody become a micromanager? Because there are telltale signs of why somebody typically does. And if you are either the individual that's falling into that trap, or you yourself are being micromanaged, hopefully, with our conversation, we can kind of give some tips on this is what I would recommend you do, because I have certainly worked with micromanagers before. Like I've been micromanaged, and I have certainly had to unfortunately resort to micromanagement against my better judgment. But that's all things I'll explain and I'll give my reasonings why. And I'd love for your side of it too, because you've had a very different work history and experience than than I have.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah. And I'll I'll definitely get into that too. I've just off the top of my head, I'm been very fortunate in my learning development career the last eight years that I've had such good luck. Very, very fortunate to have some amazing people managers, people leaders, whether I was in manufacturing, the entertainment industry, and now the public sector, just that I had some like rock star managers. And the words I throw around, which we won't probably talk about with micromanaging, are autonomy, trust, and flexibility. All those like stick out to me with what I've been able to experience in a few different positions I've had in learning development. And so I'm yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation on the uh the other side of the micromanaging world.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yeah, yeah, and well, I I definitely want to make sure we hit on the idea of trust because that's so pivotal with micromanagement. Like it's it's paramount. Like, so just so everybody is aware, like just so we can have a shared language on this, a micromanager is someone that excessively supervises employees. Like you try to control every task, every function, every detail of any and all projects that your team has. And what it boils down to is you either believe yourself to be able to do it better than those that are tasked for it, or you might be hiding something. And we'll kind of get into that a little bit more. But does that feel like a fair, I don't know, uh definition?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Yeah, I would say it's if it it's not always everything, but it's maybe a majority or a lot.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Sure. That's it, that's an extremely fair point. Um, yes, I I shouldn't use those uh there's certain aspects of things.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yes, there's certain aspects of things that they definitely want to control. And it could be for a variety of reasons, but yeah, a lot of times it's it becomes very apparent after that the individual, you as the individual, feel and notice that you might be being micromanaged.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Oh god, yeah, yeah, and it's it's god, it's so rough. It's rough. And you kind of mentioned this like becoming part. Like, how does somebody become or like why on earth does somebody in their wildest dreams ever even think like I should micromanage? That's a good idea. Because I just said earlier, like when I was introducing this, I flat out said wide open, I have had to resort to this, and I will explain why. Like, so the allure, if you will, of micromanagement is that it often will give you short-term gain to spite your long-term effect, and that has to do with your team starts to start to have like the trust dissolves, um, their morale drops, they don't feel a creative license in the things they're doing. They, as you said earlier, autonomy that is just vanquished. So, once again, why on earth would anybody yours truly, especially like why would I ever want to do that? Well, I'll give you an example. The the time that I had to do it is when I had caught an employee not doing their job for the better half of five months, despite them claiming it and having all these grandiose reasons of yeah, exactly, right? Like, oh, I uh I'm waiting on this person, or I can't do this. Like everything seemed to be this far greater struggle. And then when it came time to deliver, and I folks, I I hope I at least come across as being a pretty laid-back person. Yes, I have my quality and my standards, but if you have a different way of approaching it, hell, Patrick and I constantly have different ways of approaching things. But it's like, yeah, you do you, man. Like, I get it, it's all good. As long as we hit the finish line in the same way, that's great. I don't care. Cool. When this happened and it became all too abundantly clear that this was kind of a ride I was taken for, the action I needed to take to make sure that this did get done effectively was I had to resort to micromanagement. I'm like, okay, I want to be CC'd on every single email. I want this, I want this, I want daily reports, I want like I had to hammer down. And the craziest part is in one week, one week, everything shifted. Like he was more productive, he got all these things done, but it didn't last because nobody wants to last in that kind of an environment that's gross. So we have since parted ways, and that that that's fine, whatever, but it was just not a right fit, apparently, and that's so be it. That's fine. But so if you're ever asking yourself, like, why am I being micromanaged? Something happened, like, and might not necessarily be you that did it. There's an outside influence, something has triggered it to happen because most people don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

It could be also a lack of trust from that leader who in your situation, same thing. You had an employee who was uh working so so hard, it sounds like for months on end, and you had to, yeah, kind of you had to shift gears a little bit and say, okay, now I need to be like mother hen here and like watching over you all the time. You don't want to do that, but the expectations are that your employee does their job, and this doesn't sound like it was a slip up here or there, it was a long time of not really doing anything, and so that again that was a lack of trust. There might be pressure from above. Maybe there's that manager's manager where I've had that situation in my in former uh former career. It was similar situation where the I was micromanaged a bit, a handful of people were micromanaged a bit due to the uh actions of the micromanager's micromanaging boss, you know. Oh boy, it it was just kind of you you could see it and you you almost you you were frustrated, but also you could see and sense why your boss was acting that way due to someone else that was even above their pay grade.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah. And it's gosh, when it's a circumstance like that, it's so hard, right? Because like it's so easy to vilify. Hell, we talked about this a little bit last week. Like, people are more likely to edit than create. Well, it's also really easy to make commentaries on other individuals because we don't know the entire story. With all of that being said, yes, we are our own autonomous individuals, but we all do feel that pressure. Like we all feel those exerted forces of like, oh man, like, okay, I gotta get this done as best I can. I'm relying on all of you. If you don't deliver properly, then that's gonna reflect on me. Then I have to deal with it. Like, it's tough, it's a really tough thing. It can be kind of a cascade, like you were saying, where you were kind of dealing with uh micromanagement inception, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Like a Russian doll kind of thing, like wow, it's just it's just all micromanager on the way down. Holy hell! Um it so to kind of like build into this a bit more about just the negative impact is ultimately what being a micromanager is like the manifestation of is just telling your team, I do not trust you to do this the right way unless I am holding your hand.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

And seriously, who out there, even remotely, is like, that's the way I want to be managed. Uh, children, no, they want their hands held. That's all the and I would even, and I genuinely I'm gonna disagree. To a point, like very young children, like three and stuff like that, even then are like, no, I want to do it. And then they'll sit there and they'll struggle for a half an hour, you're like, oh god, like we needed to leave 30 minutes ago. Square goes in the freaking square peg, not just yes, but then when you do it for them, then they're they're mad, right? Like, and there are times that like, I mean, my kids absolutely like you know, mom, dad, I need help with this. Okay, they're asking for it, so their autonomy is still in check. They have asked for the assistance, but if I just go and do it, they not only didn't learn anything, they have a bit of a resentment. Like, I could have done that. Like, well, as a matter of fact, oh man, and I'm throwing myself under the bus here. I'm really weird about making sure blankets are like picked up in my living room because for some reason I'm the only one in this family that knows how to fold one. I'm like, oh my god, this is crazy. And like every night when we kind of like all hang out and watch a little show before bed or something like that, everyone's got a little blanket, and that's cool, whatever. I don't care. But then when I'm trying to like teach my kids, like, hey, when you're done with that, why don't we fold it up and put it on the couch? And there's been plenty of times where, like, say my son is doing it, and it is there's effort, he's got the effort in there, but I'm like, oh, that is okay. And what I will find myself doing, and I have caught myself from I think you know where I'm going with this, is he'll do it, he'll hang it up, and when he turns to walk away, I'll grab it and I'll like kind of clean it up a bit. And then he turns and he sees that. I'm like, oh, that was done. Like, I have since caught myself from doing that. Sure. Like, you've got no, it's not bare.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Well, and you you've stopped saying, son, that's a blanket, not a fitted sheet. Why can't you fold that?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Oh, no, I don't know that I'm waiting for him to fire back and say, Dad, this this house is lived in clean.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

We don't need to fold blankets, it's lived in clean.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

It is, it is lived in clean. Dude, if I was to if this was a non-just audio podcast, I would do a pan around of the room I'm currently in. That is that is not lived in clean. That is wow, okay. But I can I'm only one man.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

I think that's a great point you brought up, though. If you want to try to, like, they're learning. You know, you put the effort in to fold the blanket, it wasn't perfect, but that you have to kind of then ask yourself, okay, is it okay? Am I gonna be that much of a perfectionist? Am I gonna lose sleep over if I walk away? Am I gonna remember that the blanket was uh not that the corners weren't totally touching? And so it's just uh I think something people have to learn to learn to live with that it's it's not that big of a deal. But the idea, the the big deal is your son learning about cleaning up and saying, let's let's try to keep this room a little more organized so we don't it's like walking in the room with the bed unmade, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

You know, like we we do that it doesn't have to be perfectly made bed, but the idea is that it's studies show this making you know, making your bed is a great way to start the day because it leads to other little daily habits that compile and over and over, and so yes, I I think that's a great yeah, and I you you're touching on something, and that was going to be my next point, and that is like so in in this case, I am I I was being a bit of a micromanager, like it's a small thing, but it doesn't need to be massive, and it's okay to have um oh what's the term I'm drawing a blank, but it's okay to have standards.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

That's what I was gonna say. Like, it's okay as a leader, it's okay for you to have standards, but it's also very important that you have those standards. You have to give your team an opportunity to rise to the occasion. If you're a good leader, they will eventually rise to those standards, maybe not immediately, just like uh everybody ever didn't rise to those standards automatically. Like you and I, we talk pretty regularly about like say presentations, right? Like, hey, um, maybe don't have an entire text blocks of like Moby Dick on the presentation side. Like maybe, maybe we reduce that. You and I can joke around and make those sarcastic remarks to one another, but if that is our team member and we're making those kinds of remarks and we're being snide about it, or going in there and correcting it for them, that really gives the wrong impression. And we're not allowing them the opportunity to grow, have that autonomy, and build that trust with us. Like, I can do this, you can trust me to do it.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Yeah, I think it's giving those suggestions. Yeah, based on and maybe you have to steer it kind of where you want to go because it it could be that's what the expectations are, but allowing that person to grow in their own role. And which gets me to some questions then. You kind of touched on one before, Steve, about what is a micromanager. You mentioned about the C you had to CC, the gentleman had to CC you on the emails. Like, what are some other things that you're aware that micromanagers do?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Sure. I mean, the CC thing on like all emails that are directed to a specific project, like that's a that is a hallmark example, like through and through. I folks out there, if your manager is asking for that, it's not because they love reading emails, they are collecting receipts. That's what it is. They're collecting receipts to make sure you are doing exactly what they want.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

And I want to make a point to jump in quick that we're talking about like every email. Okay, there's times where you might be your manager, might say, Hey, I'd like you to email this person. Maybe it's uh something that's not getting done. He's like reaching out to a different department, and you're gonna CCN them on that email because you're saying, Hey, my manager's on this. So I've reached out a couple times. Let's say I'm associate level, I've reached out and I'm not hearing responses. Well, hey, now I've got my manager on here. And and they're gonna be you've talked to your manager already saying, Hey, I'm not getting any uh anywhere with this issue. And so they say, Oh, throw me on the on the CC. Great. Now it sets that precedent of hey, a manager, a people leader is involved. But to what you were getting to was that they want to be on everything. Yes. Again, they wanna they want to watch over you. They're collecting receipts, as you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

I mean, that's really the best way I can explain it, is it's receipt collection. It's you are compiling a database of information on exactly what this individual is doing on a regular basis. Who are they speaking to? What are they speaking about? How much time are they burning in between these emails? Like, there it's honestly overbearing. Like, and it it sucks. It absolutely sucks. I'm so glad that the amount of time I had to do that lasted so little. Like, I'm so thankful because it felt like I was walking around in someone else's skin and I hated it. Like it was just so awful. At least they'd have been nice if they were better looking. Like if they would have been really nice, like if it would have been like Brad Pitt or something, like okay. But um, so let me see when it's here. The CC thing, that's like a hallmark sign. Um, they are often late on delivering um on projects because they're overburdening themselves with your stuff and their stuff. So like they'll do yours, but when it comes to their own things, they start to fall behind. And that is absolutely the truth. Like, yeah, I I told you about that. So, one of the things I'll get into a little bit later on, or if you are being micromanaged, what should you do? And that is one of the things we'll get into. So there's that. Um uh focusing on details that just aren't super important. Like, you have a project, you have very nitpicky. Like, I'm sorry, I don't like that you called this East. Um, can you change that? I'm sorry, what other words would you like me to use? Like land of the rising sun? Like, I don't what are you what? But then they're also the same ones that you can. Be like, well, I I also noticed that you're using north and south. Like, how come you can use that? And I can't like so it's just like that's weird, that's random, but like you know what I mean. Um, they will they're never satisfied with whatever deliverables you give them. They're just they're not because it's not what they would have done necessarily. It they'll find these little critiques, the smallest, most minutiae of what you gave them, they're gonna look at them and they go, I wouldn't have done it that way. Like, I noticed that you you shadowed the text on this. I wouldn't have done that. That has nothing to do with anything. Like, what? Who cares? That's not the content. That's a filler, that's aesthetic.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Like, so they're they also will give you all this stuff to do and then sometimes tell you exactly how it should be done. Yes, versus if there's that wiggle room, give your employees the benefit of the doubt. Now, it could be and I'm not talking about let's say, for example, like my when we we build presentations, we have our standard uh colors that we use that are the uh the company uh organization. So we use that uh that let's say PowerPoint slide deck. We have a logo, we have this. Those are I don't say required, but like recommended that that people use those when they're building out their slides. And as a team, we have also picked a specific font to use for like the base slides, so like the the uh the title slides, things like that. And when we're getting to different chapters, we use the same font because that is consistent. Yeah, makes sense. But that but that's not uh well I noticed that you know you put a little extra space here or that, you know, like it's not getting so overly critical.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Exactly. When you look at something as basic as what you're saying, right? Like a slide, you have one sentence on it, and they're like, I noticed that you used the word and, but not the ampersand. Yeah, is there a reason for that? Like what? It's the same thing. Like, so that right there, that is that's micromanagement. Like, and it doesn't even necessarily have to be from somebody that's your direct manager, it's just somebody that's affiliated with a project that you might be working on. Like, so it can come from a multitude of different directions. So it's important to at least be aware of what it looks like, and we all have that feeling, and it's the feeling that when you're done talking to them, you're like, am I taking crazy pills? Yeah, like that's really not that important, right? Like that's so weird.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

That actual example happened to me, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

What? Taking crazy pills? No, it didn't really, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

But I was working at Procter and Gamble. Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

I was actually like genuine, like, are you serious?

SPEAKER_02 48:35

But that would that would annoy me so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

But it's such like a yeah, I I I I could belabor the point until the the day I die, but um, I hope like is I don't know, I I feel like that gives a good a good enough representation without beating this into the ground of like we all get that gut feeling, like something is not right. And when you start feeling like every single thing you're doing is being questioned, and the things being questioned are really mundane, yeah. Congratulations, you are working with a micromanager. Like that's so that's it.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

With that, I have some suggestions since you unfortunately that one time had to be a little bit more of a micromanager. Yeah. I've got some suggestions for what the listeners can do if they find themselves being a micromanager and maybe their intentions they they don't want to be one, but they just they're finding that they they are falling into a little bit of a trap, we'll say.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

And a few of a few of those are to I love the word delegation.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Delegate what needs to be done and leave out the how. If you have that flexibility, okay, this is what I would like to have you complete, but then let them find their way there. Yes. So give them that, give them the autonomy, give them the flexibility to create that presentation on uh new leader skills, right? Maybe you say, hey, I I we just want to make sure that we're hitting these four points because they align with the standards of our company, sure whatever, right? But and say, hey, don't forget to use the colors that we use at this company. Okay, sure. Sure, sure. But let them get there on their own, you know? And yes, that's just a good good thing to try.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Well, and I I think on that note, like to kind of further that even, make sure that your definition of success is understood by everybody. Like, really, you have a project, right? Like as you said, delegate the what. So what are we doing? Well, we are doing whatever we're making this presentation for this client. Okay, cool. They now know they have their pecking order and their their marching orders, excuse me, of like this is what I need to accomplish. That is the definition definition of success. That's what you need to focus on. You do not need to focus on the minutia, the small bits of detail. That is, quite frankly, what you pay them for. Like I feel like I've said this on a previous episode, and if I haven't, forgive me. But when you are either when you're in the front line, like so you're the one that's creating a product, material, presentation, whatever it happens to be, you are the closest thing to it. And as you kind of slowly pull back into the corporate setting, if you will, the picture gets bigger. You're saying like I'm a so I'm a del director of learning and development. Ooh, let me adjust my time, right? What that ultimately means is I not only need to understand the small details, but I also need to understand how those small details fit into the grander scheme of things.

SPEAKER_04 52:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

So in this circumstance, if I tell somebody, like, hey, we need to make a uh we need to make a training on I don't know, uh leading without authority. Great. Okay. And these are some of the touch points that we want to make sure that we address in there. As long as there is a presentation that was built and those touch points are in there, fantastic. If there's nothing super egregious in there, well then that's that's a success. It it wins. If it's not like loaded with clip art or something like that, be like, okay, congrats. That that's great. If you throw in terrible clip art, well then I might call you on it. Be like, this just doesn't look professional. That's not me being nitpicky or micromanage-y, that's me seeing the grander picture of what's relevant for everyone. Like, well, this this would make it look cleaner. Oh, okay, but it's up to you on what you want to use. You want to use a picture from your phone or something? Great. Like you even said that, right? Like that you use a picture from your phone and like it worked wonders.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

I got that from our uh our friend Greg Tall.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Yes, but yeah. But the the idea is that when you define success, it makes it easier for everybody else to follow suit.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's important too, if you are on maybe a bit of a crunch time, you know, set some deadlines is okay to do as a manager, but also have those check-ins. So let's say, hey, we've got this due in three weeks. I want I'd this, I'd like this to be complete, you know. Yeah, check in every three, four days. Maybe after you like break it up into like sections. So it's okay, we're gonna do five days on this part, five days on this, five days on that, and have those check-ins. Say, how are things going? Do we need to make any adjustments? Do you need any help with anything? And your employee will feel that trust that they can come to you and say, Hey, first week was awesome, this was great, but I'm struggling a little bit here. I wouldn't mind some support to finish up this part of the project. And so then you're you're balancing, you're also creating that good dialogue, and that's where your trust can start to form as well.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Yeah. Oh, God, without a doubt. Um, and on that, like you're opening up the dialogue, right? So, with that, just just being as communicative as you possibly can. Um, without being overbearing, might I add. Like, just just be transparent. Um, I like the term open door policy, right? Like, hey, if you want to come to me, if you have questions, that's great. You don't need to rely on me to do it for you because I have every faith in the world you can do it. And I I should, right? And if I don't, well, isn't that really the problem? Like, that's that's the real issue. Um, which actually kind of ties in with what should you do if you're being micromanaged, right? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Well, don't not necessarily to everyone to get up and just leave their jobs. No.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

No, but you're not entirely wrong. I mean, it it really depends. And there, this is not a panacea. Like, I promise you that whatever I'm about to splurt out is not going to be the cure all if you happen to be micromanaged. Um, what I can offer to you is advice based off of my own experience as somebody that was micromanaged. Um, the short version is if they're keeping receipts on you, you need to keep your own. And that means holding as much communication as possible, being as open as you possibly can, but making sure that you hold those records. Because believe it or not, um, depending upon the severity of the micromanagement that might be taking place, um, that can be viewed as a hostile work environment. And I know that sounds like super, I don't know, kind of new agey. Um, but yeah, like it's absolutely the truth. I mean, we just said it earlier, right? Like it more a um a poor situation or a perceived dire work situation more than doubles your chances of calling in if you just have like the sniffles. And it's like, dude, okay, whatever. Um, if it's your manager, it's what was the numbers? I let me look it up here. It's 3.5 times are your more than likely. If it's your fellow coworkers that are feeding into it, it's 4.7. So have those receipts for lack of a better term, because that then acts as your guide for a conversation, not so much with the individual that's micromanaging you, but with their manager and possibly HR, to say, like, this is what's going on. I guess I'm I'm not entirely sure how you'd like me to proceed here. And genuinely, if they don't, you know, work with you, then you have to start asking yourself, like, okay, how what are my options? And I I agree with you, Patrick. I am not asking anybody like just quit your job because um that sucks. But you do need to be honest with yourself and just ask, like, is this really what I want to be doing for the long term?

SPEAKER_02 57:50

Yeah, it's a place I want to be if I can't even get you know someone like an HR on my side if they think it's nothing. I mean, so that's an you know unfortunate situation if that if that does occur.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

But honest to goodness, um, when I sorry I'm interrupting you, but um, and I I kind of want to wrap this out after you say your piece too, just because I know we're running long. Um, but this is a great topic. I did this once. Like I said, I I had a micromanager, I've had a couple, um, but I had a micromanager and I did exactly this. I was a pack rat with communication. Like every single thing. I'm like, oh, when do you want this Dubai? What do you want? Like, I I hammered those details. And I eventually went to their manager and I included HR. Like, look, guys, you pay me to do a job. I'm doing it. These, this is my proof, this is my evidence, but it appears that no matter what I am doing, it's not good enough. So I guess I just don't know how I should proceed. And I I kid you not, obviously, I wasn't privy to those conversations that were had with my manager, but things drastically improved, and it turns out that there were some outside pressures, perhaps, um, that were influencing this individual because they were not always like that. So it was kind of one of those, oh, and we all lived happily ever after moments, which was great, but boy, it was a slog to get to that. It's not fun. It's such a it's a really tough, almost dare I say, unbearable experience at points.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Sure. Yeah, and I I think it just in my experience too. It's just you have those confidants at work, maybe your co your co-workers that are are you noticing this too? Is this just happening to me? And you can start to see a trend, or yeah, maybe for some reason, if it's just on you, then that's a little bit more ammo to like not to fire back with, but like also to say, hey, this is not a maybe a good fit for me because you are maybe it could be that stress, it could be in talking about like not only mental health, but we we said the the facts or the stats of people calling out sick, but you could literally get yourself sick of worry from from stress from the anxiety, and I think it's you know, um yeah, that can be that to be taken, I think, seriously, and just something to consider when things aren't going.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

And I do feel like to so to that credit, um, I do feel like organizations are starting to take that more seriously, that that kind of mental health aspect of it of like, oh, that that is a big deal. Oh. Sorry, I thought I had a visitor. Um, so with that, yeah, I that's a great call. Making sure you have a solid support. Uh, maybe that's that that's kind of really it, right? Like, um, you don't want an echo chamber necessarily, but it is important to have somebody that you can confide in at work and just be like, I this is crazy, right? Like, this doesn't make any sense. And let them give you your hon their honest opinion. Like, if they're like, no, that you screwed up, or it's like, oh, okay, then you kind of have to check yourself. But if they're seeing the same oddities too, okay, well, then there's there's really something there.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

So for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Yeah, nice. Nice. I that was is there anything else? Uh I feel like we covered everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Is there anything we hit the nail on the head?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Well, do you know Patrick? Do you know who has never had to micromanage our ugliness?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Spinneroski.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

You dang race, this is Spinnarouski. It is, folks, while Mr. Patrick fires up the wheel, a reminder for our new listeners. Each episode we spin the Spinner Rooski, which is a wheel of names that might belong to the woman who so generously shoved Mr. Patrick and I into the ugly club all those years ago. And the goal is that eventually we'll land on her name so we can thank her properly. You ready to rock this, biz? Let's spin it up. Spin the rooski.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

Shelby. Shelby. Shelby. Wow. I didn't know she was Shelby.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

I didn't know maybe maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. I don't know. I don't know. Shelby! Wow. Well, thank you so much for everything you have given us. Thank you for living rent free in our heads. Thank you for all that you have done to help us build the ugly club. We appreciate you more than you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Shelby. It's it's been a while. Reach out to us. Let us know how you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

I man. That would be my dream. And it really, really, really is. Yes. I would love it. But it has to uh I I'm really tempting fate here that it would be awesome if all of a sudden we got a random email amongst the emails that we have been receiving, which is great, um, to say, hey, I'm the one that pushed you guys, be like, that'd be so and I hope it is Shelby. That'll be our last episode ever. So maybe they can wait like several thousand episodes. Yes, please. Yeah, we'll be doing this in our 70s.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

So uh Steve, it is time to do some shout-outs, and I'm just gonna kick it over to you because I think you've got a good one. Um you kept telling me how famous I am for having my 15 seconds of fame on the news, but you are way cooler than I am. I know you are invited on all the cool things, and um you you have an announcement that you have uh you are you are leaving grossly competent because you're so famous now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Nope. No, no. I'm not leaving grossly competent. You can't make me, you can't force me out. Tell us about your shout-out. So, my shout out is to April Reed from the Missing Peace podcast. Um, she was so wonderful and so gracious. This is several months ago, actually. I believe I recorded this back in May. Yes. I know. Yep. She's been sitting on this one. Um, we had a really nice chat about learning and development and just being authentic in the workplace, my opinion on what AI looks like in the workplace and in learning and development for that fact. Um, but it was genuine. I think it's about a half an hour long, so it's not a super long listen, but um, I could not recommend it enough. And I would definitely recommend going to check out some of her other episodes because she does a really nice job with her guests. Um, she really has a fun way of kind of pulling out different aspects of what they do and their professions. It is it just makes it a really great listening experience. And she also does a blog for each of her episodes. Like, so that's a nice recap. Yeah, I saw that. I was like, we are dropping the ball. Um it genuinely, like it is really, really professional and just awesome. And April just couldn't be a nicer person, like just an absolute delight. I would love to have her on here. Like she, but we would definitely corrupt her. So I'm almost a little leery, but really, folks, sincerely, um, if you have a couple, you know, half an hour or something I can spare, please give it a listen. Doesn't have to be my episode. My god, just an episode of hers. She will win you over. She's absolutely fantastic. So, April, thank you. You are my shout out of the week.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

Amazing. I love it. Thanks. Uh, I will shout out, um, didn't have much for this week, but I'll shout out uh clean air, clean breathable air. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

Oh, cheers to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

And open windows today. Turn the air off. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

All right, man. We should probably wrap this puppy up. This is this is going long, but it's been awesome. And thank you for humoring me on the micromanagement part because that's been something I've been wanting to talk about for a while, and this was a great opportunity to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

Um you told me how I needed to edit this episode when I need to have it by. I have to send you a copy before it's even up.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

And then like all the questions you made me respond to.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

Yeah. Yeah. I would I'd hold your hand and do it, but yeah, right. I don't even know the first folks. That is the Patrick show. He is the editing guru. So uh if anything's ever wrong with our editing, please send your complaints to Patrick Aileshire at hitting. Don't do that. Only send him praise because he's awesome. But you guys are also awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. That is the end of this episode, Uggoes, and we will see you next time.