You Down with SME's!? (Yeah, You Know Me!)

Whoa there, partner! Why don't you swing that horse on over here and have a look-see, y'hear?

In this episode of Grossly Competent, hosts Steve and Patrick record live and on the road for your listening pleasure!

Well, that's HALF true.

Patrick takes to the road while Steve stays home to explore the nuances of working with subject matter experts in the work place. Can an SME ever be trusted to not make an 800-slide PowerPoint? Is Learning and Development any better? (Yes. -Steve) Find out the best practices for working with the SMEs in your industry in this episode!

Before all that jazz, Patrick demonstrates his commitment to bringing this show to life every week by bringing his gear on vacation with him to record. Will we finally hear from Silverfox Joe?

Tune in and find out!

Here's a link for your troubles, yo!

• In case you don't get the title reference - OPP by Naughty by Nature
• Visit Door County

Come for the chat, stay for the laughs, and run from our faces: we're Grossly Competent!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Hello and welcome to Grossly Competent, the learning development and adulting podcast that doesn't claim to be pretty, but ah no. We will happily pretend to be slightly competent. I am your host, Steve Council. I'm joined by my co-host, a man that no matter the language, is met with a gagging sound. Mr. Patrick Ailshire. Oh, that is rough, and I like it.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Wow. Ouch. You know, Steve, you are a man of many talents. Co-hosting a podcast? One of them?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

You know it's a question mark because your voice has the intonation where it goes up, like, uh jury. Jury's still out on whether or not I am actually even able to co-host a podcast with you. You are the one with more expertise and experience than I am, so I am always I am I am but a student to your mastership.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Um definitely not the SME, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Snap. Spoiler alert, folks, that might be what we're talking about. But before we get into that, Mr. Patrick, would you care to let Listener Land know who is our sponsor of the week?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

This episode is brought to you by Password Reset Emails. You'll create a new password, immediately forget it, and somehow blame society. Password reset emails. Identity crisis as a service.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I um I don't want to thank password reset emails. And as a matter of fact, uh password reset emails, if you could send us back the check that we sent you for sponsorship, uh I hate password reset emails with every fiber of my being. And I think I speak on behalf of roughly 90% of society because no, they're trash. And I like my passwords. I always get the green of like, that's a good one. No one's gonna guess that one. Don't make me change it 68 times, so I forget things, or you're gonna force me to be lazy and then just enter something that's super simple. That a hacker, if they really want my stuff, come get it, I guess, because I'm I'm poor. Um, but I don't know. That's my two cents. Uh, that is also not an invitation to try to hack me. Please don't do that. Um uh I might be poor, but I um I just don't want that headache. So yeah. Thanks. I know somebody you can hack. His name is Elon Musk. Um so with that, um, I guess uh thanks.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Are you a uh are you a um I know at work work passwords one thing, obviously, right? But like are you a with your personal stuff, are you a password manager guy? Or what do you mean? Do you want to like LastPass or one of those password secure password organ organizers? Really? Oh man, you gotta get into it. Oh, in the noggin.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

No.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

You tuck them underneath your mask.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yes, because it feels like I just absorb the content through osmosis, right? Like I'm just like a frog, like the contact with my skin.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Ah, I'm the last pass user. And I love it. I've used it for the last few years. I have a 26-character password to get into my account, and then I've got dozens of any website that I've got an account for. I don't even know my passwords other than the main login, which is not the 26 letters of the alphabet. I promise you that. I was just gonna say it is another, you know, it is a it is a phrase that you'll never guess.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Uh but is it it's Z-Y-X-W.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

No, that is what I needed to learn and know years ago, uh, you know, for the tricks of uh you know, when you try to show off for your friends in middle school.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Well, I thought you were gonna uh claim that as one of those tried and true methods that if you have a couple beverages and you get pulled over, oh, that'll fool the cops.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

No, that'll get as you're walking in a straight line, whoa, one thing at a time, officer.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah. Oh. That's great. You know the alphabet backwards, but you smell like a distillery. So you're still getting a ticket.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

And then I want you to follow with your eyes. I don't mean move your head back and forth. Noted. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yes. Noted.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Well, Mr. Patrick, what's going on, man? Steve, I want to let you know, I am uh recording remotely, not at my apartment today in the great city of Milwaukee. I had took the show unbeknownst to you, sorry. Unbeknownst to you, uh, took the show on the road. I am in the great area. Circus of Circus, yes. Door County.

unknown 5:56

Door County.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

No way, you're in Door County right now?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I'm in Door County.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

I okay, so listeners, obviously we are an audio only format, and that is for your safety. Um, I was looking at the background of Patrick, and it looks like siding of a house. And I was thinking, like, oh, well, maybe he's like visiting family or something like that. But you're actually you decided to record on the road.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

I decided to record on that's dedication, baby. Is it? It's kind of crazy. What could have happened was it could have been a hey Steve, I'm heading out of town. Can we record on Wednesday? Or can I get back? I was I was packing up my stuff this week and was like, I'm gonna bring my microphone and my laptop, and I'm just gonna record on vacation because I'm a loser.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Nerd alert.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Wow, what's uh what's Uncle Patrick doing? Just don't don't worry about him.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Just my nephew, when I was uh working on um getting everything set up for today when I got after I got up here a few hours ago. Yeah, my nephew walked in and he was like, Are you recording your podcast? I said, I will be later. And then my niece was like, Who's your guest? And I said, Oh, it's it's just my co-host and I today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

She said, Is he coming up here? Oh I said, No, I wasn't invited. No, that is, folks, it is a because it's it's your family, right? Like it's like a family excursion you ever have. Big family, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

We've got a good 30, 30, 40 of us up here.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Um, you know what that means. If you're up there with your family, that also means I'm assuming brother-in-laws are included in that, correct?

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

If you have been a long time listener here, folks, you think I think you know where I'm going with this. Uh that means Mr. Joe, the man, the myth, the legend, is in our midst.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

No, it's he's in the vicinity. Now he's a cool guy. While I am here sitting a report uh recording a podcast, drinking my athletic non-alcoholic beer, Joe is down by the pool having an adult time. But I digress. Uh, I'm happy to be here, of course.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

So great.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

What I should have said is when you you noticed that there was siding, I could have said that I was kicked out of my own house and I have to record outside now. My my uh my wife told me that I can out no no longer record in the house, so I'm about to.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Oh, you're in the you're in the doghouse, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Literally.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

I don't know why Macho Man came out of me on that one, but Oh yeah, you're outside in the doghouse.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Oh yeah, step into a slim gym.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Oh my god, talk about stupid tangent. Um, so macho man. Um, I one of my coworkers, he's been battling a cough for a while. I don't believe that's a HIPAA breach. Um, but yeah, he's just been battling this cough, right? And uh he went to the doctor for the second time now yesterday. He's like, gosh, like this is really annoying. I'm like, well, did they give you anything in addition? He's like, Yeah, they they gave me this like uh inhaler and um they gave me a steroid. And I went, oh dude, you know you gotta you gotta be very careful with that because uh your shirt could always snap at any moment. And if all of a sudden you start trying to like point people, like grab that document and like then you start like ripping up binders, like we're gonna need to have a talk. And obviously, because it's me, he just did what everybody does rolls their eyes, because that's the correct response to me on the job or anywhere, really. Uh so I maybe that's where Macho Man came from because that was earlier today. So maybe Macho Man is just living in me.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Well, what he would have said, he should have said, is when you said, hey, I'm looking for the copy room, he'd have been like, I'm looking for the shredder. Oh okay, I'm gonna totally tell him that tomorrow. But he can't borrow mine because mine died.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Hey, you didn't get your replacement yet?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Not yet, not yet. I'm waiting on that, uh, I'm waiting on the reimbursement from Blackendecker. I had I bought the 15-year warranty.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Blackendecker. You guys, we are a learning and development podcast here. I mean, talk about just the audience that we pull in. And they're huge Black Decker users. Uh, clearly, the the market research shows. So I think you can toss my buddy here a good shredder. I'm just appreciate that. Oh my god. So uh Black Decker, you know what? I think I might have to reach out to Black and Decker for you. I'll do that. I'm gonna reach out to them and let them know. That'd be great. Um nothing against password reset emails. I mean, they were terrible as a sponsor, but Black and Decker, now that that's uh that's a sponsor I can get behind.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Good news. Good news, Steve. Most likely that check that we sent them is probably gonna bounce.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Oh, $13. That's why we keep $12 in our account. Well, I okay, I know I was making fun, but that is some serious commitment that you decided to record um up in beautiful Door County, folks. If you're not from the Wisconsin area, Door County is a magical little glen. We'll call it a secluded glen, if you will. Um, it is uh it is it's hard to explain it. Um, it is just a really idyllic atmosphere. And uh if you ever have the opportunity to visit or just like look it up, um it's a really, really beautiful location. Fall is gorgeous too. So if summer's not your jam, uh like it's too hot, uh fall, it is absolutely gorgeous. So that's awesome, man. Sincerely, that was that's a really cool thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah, and uh quick little uh quick little insight. What we learned in I think probably grade school was like, oh, where is Dork County? Well, good news, the left hand is kind of like the state of Wisconsin, and the thumb is Dork.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

See, there you go, folks.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

The more you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

There you go. Yeah. So uh we've covered the learning part. Um what are we gonna do about the def no.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Um we're still working on that's we're we're 40 some episodes in. We're still working on the development part.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

We are we're we're developing as people. We're developing as people.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Now uh I actually do have something I want to talk about that involves development. So this is honestly pretty perfect. Well, and you may or may not have spilled the beans a little bit earlier. Um, but uh let me I know, yeah. Uh let me give some context here. So this has been a crazy week for yours, truly, but a good one. A lot of great reasons, though. Um, I have something that I would like to talk about that I just recently celebrated, and by recently I mean today, as a matter of fact. Um I have officially been no, but that I appreciate it. I appreciate that. Um, my birthday is on February 31st. Ah, got him again. Yep. So go ahead and mark that. Yeah, go ahead and mark that in your calendar. Um, no, I have officially been in my role at the organization I'm with for one year. Hold for applause. Okay, thank you. Congratulations. Thank you. Well, what's kind of an interesting, like full circle moment is just yesterday, excuse me, just yesterday, we had new employee orientation for a new group of employees, right? And I was able to launch that day, so just yesterday, our brand new, fully revamped new employee orientation. So one year after I started, I was able to take what we had and go nope and make it something brand new and shiny and awesome. So that's I'm excited about that. That's awesome. And you started it yesterday. I quite honestly just started it yesterday, but um, yeah, uh, yeah, trust me, it's been a slog. Um, but it was that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

I'm sorry, that reminds me of when I worked in manufacturing, kind of having uh put together some sort of a training program, initial training program, as I talked about, and that was that felt really good to get that done and underway and kicked off officially. So I'm sure that's that feels pretty good to finally be able to get it to where you wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, and well, what's this is the development part, right? Like, so what's kind of interesting is as far as building this new employee program, I had to work with subject matter experts. Now, there was a new orient a new employee orientation program that I participated in when I first started, and um it needed some work, and that is not meant to be a slight on anybody, um, but the context, it was an eight and a half hour day, and it was a PowerPoint presentation of over 250 slides. So I saw that and went, no, we can't do that now because that is rough. That's a really tough pill to swallow. So one of the things I had to do was work with subject matter experts on saying, Hey, I know you have all this content that you feel like is super important, but for somebody brand new, they don't need to know that. So, what I would like to talk about today is that kind of duality, like with subject matter experts and learning and development, and how you should try to work with one another. Like, so if you listening right now, if you're the subject matter expert at your work and you have to work with your L and D person, or you're the L D person and you you need to work with subject matter experts. I'm hoping with our conversation today, Patrick, that we can kind of give some tips to our audience on ways that they can navigate those waters. So hope that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yes. So basically, what I'm hearing is if someone wanted to start hosting a podcast, they would come to us oh, subject matter experts. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

No, I kid. Uh but no, I this topic's great. I'm really excited to kind of dive into it um and see what you've kind of got in mind as far as the direction goes. Because I have just in my just when you introduce it there, I'm already thinking of orientations that I've sat through or that I have uh helped facilitate with those other subject matter experts and it's already like, oh yeah, gotta bring that part up, gotta bring that part up. Because it's it is can be tricky when especially because if you're leading a training or an orientation, you're just kind of that facilitator, and you have cut someone come in who has so much stuff, but it's like like you said, let's just pump the brakes a little bit. This is this is our one of day one, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

You're absolutely right. Like, and that was really kind of it, where when I inherited this training and or orientation, whatever you want to refer to it as, um, when I saw just the um the density, I think that's the word I was looking for, like just the density of the information, my thought immediately was like, whoa. The I think what happened and what happens often, which I you kind of touched on a little bit, is that there should be a very clearly defined difference between working with a subject matter expert or letting them fully drive because they're the subject matter expert.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah, yes. So like yeah, I'm just thinking about when I was starting my last organization, not the one I'm in now, we had we did have a so you mentioned you know, it was eight hours, two hundred and fifty slides, that's a lot. But what I what I find is that at least in my last again, my last position, we actually did have two full days of orientation, but it was a lot of uh not diversion, but there was a lot of moving pieces, a lot of people coming and going, and so it made it made it go actually fairly quickly. And the the the feedback we got from those participants because we had a like a Monday-Tuesday orientation for employees coming in, and then we had a Wednesday-thursday for another group. Sure. It they majority of employees said, like, I actually really appreciate because we got a lot of information, but it was an overload. And because we had other people, and we'll I'll get to this in a minute, but we did have people coming in and going that were those kind of experts of their area, and there was only a couple where I was we we would have to tell them to like he, let's maybe switch up how much we're going through because it's it's too much for day one. These really employees they want to know when the benefits kick in. When am I getting paid? Yes, and they don't they don't need to know stuff that is like way over the top for the first day.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yes. Um and I actually I really like how it sounds like that that was broken up. Yeah, two full days of orientation sounds like a lot, and and maybe it was, but there is a very definitive difference between dense and engaging, and like we kind of talked about the engaging versus entertaining, uh, I think two two episodes ago, something like that. Yep. Um, where it's okay to have things where they move along where it does feel like there's a rhythm to it. We've all witnessed it. I I think I speak on behalf of our audience, you, everybody, where you have sat down for either an orientation or a presentation of some kind, and the person flips on a slide, and it is just a dense block of words. Like to me, what that says is L D had nothing to do with this. This is all just an information dump from the subject matter expert, and that is not meant to be um uh a critique or to make fun, because subject matter experts play a seriously powerful role, but they're subject matter experts in that topic, not in how people learn, which it sounds like you were able to navigate those waters with having. Multiple day orientations and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah, and I will I'll share. I was at a it was at a casino, and so we actually had you had casino employees coming in for day one. You held it was also a hotel attached, so you had hotel employees. So they got the full scope. So my team of the three facilitators, we would take turns throughout those couple days leading a couple sessions. So initially it was like, hey, this is how you get in the building, here's your badge, this is how this works, this is how you clock in, that type of stuff. And then it was benefits come to talk, right? And so it's a new speaker, new speaker coming in. Okay, stretch break, uh, payroll comes to talk. Okay, get up and move around. Now we're gonna go take a tour of the building. So it was all these things here, and really they all did a fantastic job. The only one we kind of really talked to was initially was like IT, because there was a gentleman come in, he had worked there for a long time, he was very knowledgeable with his role, but he was telling them stuff that was like way too deep. Like these yeah, some of these guys, they just need to know how to log into their computer. Like, we and of course, give them give them tips for password setting and stuff like that, but like you don't need to go down. I mean, it was a way too long, and so that was one of those conversations we had, like, hey, I like what you're doing here, but can we gotta scale this back a little bit because it's you're losing you're losing everybody, and so but over those couple days, you know, of course, included breaks and lunch. It was like it was a nice intro to the company itself, and yeah, uh, we we had this uh the HR manager come in, we had one of the director level leaders, it could be the CEO, it could be someone else that come in and just talk to the group, so they got to see firsthand like this is what it's like working here. So but to your point, uh as a facilitator, uh while yes, we can be necessarily these trainers, uh I still think my role as a facilitate is is really to facilitate those sessions. Yeah, I'm gonna throw out some information, I'm gonna get the group thinking, discussing and learning while I mix things up with presentations, videos, activities, small group discussion. It keeps things moving along, like I mentioned before.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

So, you know, there's those subject matter experts who are gonna provide that thorough information, especially if it's out of my scope. But it's helpful one to bring someone who knows what they're talking about, but also that can read the room and knows the audience that they're not gonna throw up that huge, you know, that blurry image or the the the pages and pages on one slide where it's like okay, that's it's too much.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. Um I I agree with you. And I one of the challenges that I had, uh so I'm gonna kind of take what you were saying and and and throw a little bit of a wrench into it. And uh what one of the struggles I had with revamping this orientation is well, it already existed. So it everybody out there is probably thinking, well, how hard could it have been then? Like you just have to change a couple slides. Ooh. Um what I was running into is subject matter experts were given full for lack of better time, creative license in the slides they were able to produce and create. And now there's this schmuck, and I am pointing to myself, that comes in and goes, I'm gonna take a machete to your presentation because it is there's no reason why you should be going through 80 slides in an hour. Like that's that's too much. So it was a bit of me trying to finesse and explain to the subject matter experts that you clearly want people to retain this information. I would like for them to retain it too. You are making them drink out of a fire hose, though. Like you've had years to retain this information through experience and know-how. You're trying to jam all of that content into a one-hour session down somebody's throat that's just starting. And to like what you said, their biggest thing on mind is when is payday? Where are the bathrooms? Like, right, who what's the name of my manager again? Like they're they're just starting. Give them some space. And the funny thing is, is I was finally able to navigate those waters. I was able to refine and cut and just just manipulate all these different slides. So I took it down from I I feel like the last number was like 273. Like it was it was a lot. Um, I was able to bring it down to 97, and instead of it being a eight-hour day, it's a five-hour day. So it is a huge so five hours, including a half an hour lunch, and um opportunity for us to get up and walk around, take a look at some of the sites. That's digestible, that is flexible. And what was funny is after I had the different facilitators, so just like what you're saying, having the director of uh maintenance come in and talk about fire safety and severe weather, and then having somebody come in, uh, our HR manager, come in and talk about employee benefits, then having our like so you you have these subject matter experts come in and actually talk about the things they're experts in. Great. What I did was I steered the conversation with their slides and made it. I used the uh Gregory Tall 10 words or less, um, and I I really forced that in there. It allowed them an opportunity to engage with having conversation, not be tied to I have to read everything on the slide, which was an issue. Um, they can throw in their own anecdotes and oh, I have a story about this. It makes it personable. Every single facilitator or speaker, excuse me, when they got done, we're like, well, that that was way easier. Yes, yes, and that's what I wanted. And the audience could sense it too, like, oh, this isn't so sterile and dense. It's like, oh, it's a bit more lighthearted. We can have a little bit of fun with this, even though you're telling me what to do in the case of a tornado. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Uh it just yeah, I think that I think sometimes you just there's too much information. It it's it's you have to trust that employees and people in general can retain information, but I think on the first day or two that's can be difficult to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

It is.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Especially if and again, this doesn't there are I'm sure there are subject matter experts out there that are great at facilitation and they've been doing it a long time, but there's also a handful that maybe aren't very familiar with the art of being up in front of a room and presenting. It does take it does take a certain type of individual to learn those skills. You and I, it took us a while to learn those, but we uh feel very comfortable getting up and knowing what the right cadence is, what the right amount of information to provide, not to overload, because we know we've been in that other end of it where we've sat there in those presentations like wow, I was just talked to for 90 minutes straight. That's why we mix things up, and so I made I made light of this, I think, a couple episodes ago, but standing in front of a a group of people and you put a slide up and it and if you uttered the words I know it's kind of hard to see, but yeah, that is your that is your moot point. Don't even if you have to say that it's not a great slide. And so, and also just thinking back to how much of this information and okay, there's let me just a quick aside. There's gonna be topics where they're just boring. And it you know, whatever that case might be, it just may be really, or I'll say I don't say boring, we'll say dry information.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Okay, boring is totally acceptable. I think we all can agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Yes, and there might be some you might have to facilitate that or train that sometime, but the idea is to again, how can I break this up? How can I make this a little bit more enticing or engaging for my audience by letting them share, letting them talk amongst each other. I so it's not just me talking at them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Oh god, you know, it's funny you say that about the um like well, for lack of a better term, boring topics, right? We well, let's be honest, man. Like, not everything is this like highly engaging and entertaining and exciting topic. It's it's not. Ooh, cybersecurity, tell me more. And it's kind of one of those things, like, you know, who gets excited about cybersecurity are people that already know about cybersecurity, like your IT staff, they're sweet. Well, guess what? They already know like what to do. Your layperson's like, yeah, whatever. Um, and I think to your credit of what you're saying about um these types of topics, um, and I would challenge anybody listening right now, like, take something that you are you are passionate about, right? Like that you know a lot about. Now try to explain that in a short time frame to somebody that has no understanding of it whatsoever. That's tough. Like you know, my you and I, like we this is our our job. Like, learning and development is what we do over the weekend on Father's Day, as a matter of fact. Um, I sat my son down to teach him how to play the card game cribbage. Okay. And I've taught people how to play cribbage before, but usually they're like my age or similarly my age. It was a very different experience for me to teach that game to a 10-year-old. And I had to like very I was like, okay, so there's three stages to the game, and you count this way, and so I was trying not to get ahead of myself, and I even found myself kind of going into jargon. Like, oh, uh, that's a that's a double run for eight. And now anybody out there that has played cribbage, at least rather fluently, knows what I'm talking about when I say that phrase. But him for the first time, he has no idea what I'm talking about. So I had to really like, oh, wait, hold on. What I mean by that is there are two runs, one, two, three, four, five, six, and then there is a pair associated, which means two more points. So you have eight total points. It's a very different thing. And most people have probably experienced this some degree. If you have ever taken a college-level course, I don't I'm curious if you know this, because I don't. Do you know if Wisconsin, because we record here in Wisconsin listeners, um, I know for uh this state, if you want to be a professor at a college, you don't have to have an educational background.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Do you know? Is that the same elsewhere?

SPEAKER_02 34:07

I just didn't know. I was like, I think it probably differs by state, I'm assuming. I mean, because that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

That's a that's a non-factor. It was more of my curiosity than anything. But the the point that I'm getting at is you I I remember when I was in uh in college, I actually remember some of it, so that's cool. Um, but there were classes I had very, very intelligent professors. Um, I remember, and if I know um big friend of the show, uh Professor Mark Lencho, if you're listening, um just kidding, he's not, he doesn't even know who I am. I was that guy in his class that could not retain or understand anything he was talking about because this man was 15 levels of intelligence higher than I ever will be. Like this guy was wildly smart. What he had a hard time doing, and I had a hard time grasping, is him relaying that information in a way that was digestible. Like that's tough. So that to me is the perfect epitome of a subject matter expert in dire need of that learning and development background. And when you can get both, bam, that's I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

That is so funny that I that instance that pops in my mind an experience I had. Uh you're familiar, I graduated from Carroll University. Oh started at at Carroll College. Yeah. When I started, it was Carroll College, and then while I was going there, they transformed it to university.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

But my first They were trying to avoid people realizing that you were there.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah, exactly. So I don't blame them. Oshkosh, though. University of Wisconsin Oshkosh had a good time there, and that's why I moved to Carroll. Um, but I I'm not I'm not joking. The the one professor I remember at my year and a half at Oshkosh, uh and I'm sure he's a big listener too, uh, Dr. Stephen Kircher, who has no mark that one on the board.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Mark it on the board.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Stephen Kircher. He taught, and it was actually one of the classes that was very difficult, but I I I really liked it because it was it wasn't it was something I was interested in. It was uh US post it post-Civil War or modern US history, something like that. So it was like Civil War onto onto So no, it was I'm sorry, it was actually he made it interesting, but he had the vocabulary of like a Dennis Miller, like just I remember taking notes and being like, I don't know what that word means, and then literally I'm not making this part up, like six or seven weeks into the semester, someone was like, What does that mean? And he was like explaining this, and then someone's like, Well, you said this last week, what does that mean? And he stopped the class and he goes, Has there been other times where you don't know what I'm saying? And like there's a class of like 40 people, everyone was like, Yeah, most most ever like every other sentence you say something. So he was like, Oh crap, sorry, you guys have to make sure. And so he was trying to like dumb it down for us, but he had such an expansive vocabulary, but I really liked the class, and I worked my butt off for that B minus. Mind you. Hey, it was I felt good about it. It was like Steve, you remember this. This was like writing essays in the blue books. Do they still do blue books?

SPEAKER_01 37:35

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

I doubt I doubt they do blue books, but that was like uh oh, I have to fill this whole book at this exam and like being proud of it. I'm like, I'm gonna work my ass off for that B minus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

I love it. Uh I digress. No, no, I love that story. Now I I have to throw it back to you. So uh Mr. Mark Lencho was the epitome of being a subject matter expert, but not being able to relay the content in an effective manner. Very smart man. I mean wildly smart, also a very kind man. So I don't want this to be demeaning in any way. Um, now to what you're saying, what my very first class I remember I took in uh in college. I don't even want to name the college because I don't want them to like grab pitchforks and say, like, take it back, take it back. Like okay. So I went to a school, right? Um, I had Introduction to Philosophy, and it was my freshman year, whatever. And you know what you want to do at 8 a.m. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday? Yes, is you want to talk about philosophy. But I find that stuff rather engaging and interesting. Um, but it could also be an extremely dry bit of content, right? So, Dr. David Cartwright was my professor, and this guy, I'm trying to think of the best way to describe him. Um gosh, I he was amazing. He had this wildly dry sense of humor that almost like he would be three sentences past the joke, and you're like, oh, like one of those. But um, he had a way of delivering serious and then joke in the same tone, so you really had to pay attention, and like the way he would explain things, like when he would talk about like uh Descartes or like Kantian philosophy, he'd be like the way he would explain to us be like, all right, so one day, after a grueling day of teaching these kinds of classes, I go down to the local store and grab myself a handful of Boons Farm because that's what you do. And in the process of purchasing this, I noticed that the price on the bottle was different than that was on the shelf. And when I went to go buy it, like so he would like explain things in these really like obviously not real scenarios, but he did it in a way that like you would sit there and kind of chuckle at it, like, oh my god, this guy. But I still that was that was over 20 years ago, and I still remember his stupid stories, but it also helped me really understand what those different philosophies meant. It was just like, but it was such a like he took dense, boring, old white man material, like huge beard, like uh, let me talk about how smart I am. And he was able to put it in ways that we all understood, we all laughed, and we also did our exams in blue books. So I completely get what you're talking about. Yeah, it's so wide.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

The blue books? Of no, of why why stories are more memorable than facts. Or was I doing a training? I might have been doing a training on that. It was a point of uh yeah, I I can't recall where that was, but it was a it was a point that was made of like this is why when people tell stories, they're more memorable than hearing just number numbers. Because it you it's something that's yes, it's something that's relatable versus like uh just a random 1948. Well, what year was that? I don't know. Well, if you know the story behind it, it might have helped you with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

It was two years prior to 1950.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Yeah. Nailed it, nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Nailed it. Um, no, but I do love that for a future topic of talking about the power of storytelling in learning and development. Um, knock that one. Hey, uh, editor, um, put that one down. That'd be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Hello, editor. They came with county with me.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Our editor is so lazy awesome. I was that's what I was trying to say. They're so lazy awesome.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Lay's awesome. Wouldn't that be great if our like secret uh editor was Mr. Joe? He's the man behind the whole organization. Is there would just be pulling strings?

SPEAKER_01 42:38

There would just be random inserts of him being like, bruh. No, that's absolutely not even remotely what Mr. Joe is like, which is the best. Um, I love how we're painting him out to be like this like Jim Bro, like, bruh. And the nice thing is we don't have to worry about hurting his feelings. Because you know he's not listening.

unknown 43:00

Okay. No.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

He is too. He's a faithful listener.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

He did ask me uh at a few a family event months ago of still doing that podcast thing? I was like, Well yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, didn't you hear it last year?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Did you hear the last episode? We talked, we talked, aren't your ears ringing? We talk about you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

It's that meme from I think it's uh uh Mad Men, where uh like the meme is like, I feel sorry for you, and he's like, I don't think about you.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

I don't even think about you at all. Yes, God, it's so scathing. That is so good. Yes, true.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

That was just mad men, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Somebody out in listener land is yelling at us, like, you guys are so stupid. Um but that's uh yeah, I I I agree with you, man. Like storytelling is so important, and I wonder. To kind of like circle back to the whole subject matter expert learning and development bit is sometimes you have to know what stories to tell in order to convey a certain message. Like depending upon what field of expertise you have, you can't just reach for the top shelf on some of these stories. Like you have to be able to explain things like I'm five and understand that especially especially when it comes to like new higher orientations or something like that, there are so many other things on their plate that you trying to make them just eat that one hour of content that you have had all this time to digest is really unfair. Because at their at the level they're at, they're trying to remember people's names. Like that's the level they're at. That is the equivalent of me going into my daughter's class. She's going into second grade this this coming school year, and me being like, okay, we're gonna talk about the themes of the great Gatsby, because I know you can read, so this is what we're gonna do. No, that's not fair. Like, no, you're right, they can read, but they can read at a certain level. I need to make sure that I'm at their level, which they Mr.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Gatsby's a dick, Mr. Steve.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

No, that is Tom Buchanan. Tom Buchanan is the dick. Get your facts right, little girl. And that's what I would say if I was in her class. Like, I'm sorry, do you not understand what the green light over the sound means? I what are you what are you serious? Did you even read it? Clip notes. And the answer.

unknown 46:01

Remember Clipnose.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

The Great Gatsby is great because he is great. We're done here. We're done here. You don't even mention Nick. You don't even mention Nick. Where's Daisy?

SPEAKER_02 46:14

What a story.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Anyway. I know. I know. I didn't realize we were going to get into so much Great Gatsby talk. Um, but we can. Bonus episode time for all our supporters out there. Strap in.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Chapter 1. A reading of Great Gatsby. Uh written and illustrated by, narrated by Steve and Patrick. Chapter 1.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

It was the best of times. It was the best of times. That's not even the Great Gatsby. That's a tale of two cities. Anyway, Nerd alert. But um, yeah. I don't know. Uh did you have anything you would like to add on this?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

No, I just I think it's a really fascinating topic, and yeah, we could probably go on and on because there's and we kind of just really touched on the you know an initial like orientation kind of like a what's you can't have too much the f the first you know few days of work or whatever you get overloaded, but like even if you were i in the heart of if it was uh just a mandatory training for employees and you wanted to have like a special guest, there's also that kind of that balance of okay, well how much are you gonna share? I have to kind of like herd herd the cattle here to make sure that everything's running smoothly. I can't have I shared this with you, Steve, uh, off the air a few weeks ago about uh uh in a meeting we had, it was just a presentation someone came in and gave a presentation. It was like way too much stuff for uh for like an actual meeting of employees. It was like so that's that's the tricky part of trying to balance all that, and so that could go both ways of new for employees, it's too much because it's all brand new, and we're trying to just again learn where our our uh where we clock in and where we where we go to eat breakfast or brush uh our break time or whatever. And but then also what are the level of employees? How much do they need to know? Are they frontline? Are they director? Are they executive? There's a certain, you know, and that's maybe that's a maybe that's a topic for another day to we kind of go a little bit further with this too.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah, I do like that, because you're absolutely right. Like you really have to play to the audience. And I do understand that with new higher orientation, you are often giving it as a generalization, right? Um, but when you do generalizations, what I have always found to be very important, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on this too, is you have got to aim at the common denominator, the lowest common denominator. And that is not uh I that might sound like I'm being mean or cruel to say like frontline employees. No, that's not the case. And maybe you're right, maybe this is a topic of conversation for a different time because it does get really complex. Um, but at least in my opinion, it is always worked out to be of a benefit to say, like, oh, everybody has this baseline, that's the target that I'm gonna try to hit. Then afterwards, you can start to try to pinpoint, oh, your director level. So now we can have these conversations. Your manager supervisor level, you we can have these conversations. Your frontline, fantastic. We're gonna get into tactical, we're gonna get into the hows, the whys, we're gonna do all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yeah, I think it's the nature of it's the nature of the job or the business. It doesn't, it's not taking away, it's not saying that the importance is different, it's just what the what the uh not even like the skill set, but it's what what the responsibility is of the role. That's what we talk about here. Perfect. But then if it's if it's uh intro to leadership, we talk about this. But if it's uh seasoned veterans, we talk about maybe something a little bit more. Yeah, it just that's just kind of the nature of it. So yeah, I think we could get into some pretty yeah healthy discussion with that too.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

One thing I want to make sure I bring up, and and then I think we can probably move on from this. Um, is I do not want to paint L and D as being perfection. Like j no, and I I really like I know we joke around on this show a lot, but I do want to be very serious about this in that I I know that I keep on saying, like, well, yeah, you know, LD is there to help make sure things are refined. There are plenty of learning and development people out there that are still learning and they learn just like everybody else. They've made mistakes, they have had blocks of texts on screens. That's okay. Like, I get that. That doesn't make it right, but I do want to make sure I paint that as like subject matter experts are bad and L and D is good, and L and D needs to steer the subject. No, not at all. It is a partnership, like there needs to be that cooperative piece rather than one overtaking the other. And I think once that happens, there are there's real information that's lost. Yes. So yeah, I just I want to be fair and just kind of point that out of I don't want everyone to think like, oh my god, yeah, oh L and D walks on water, according to Steve. No, that is not the case. We all make plenty of mistakes. Yes. Except for you and I. Of course, yeah, yeah. Uh so Mr. Patrick, do you know who is a subject matter expert at making people realize how ugly they are?

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Spinaruski.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

No, the correct answer is Mr. Joe. Mr.

unknown 52:02

Joe.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Just kidding, it is the spinaroski. Folks out there, what the spinnerouski means, if you are unaware, or you're brand new, or you're seasoned and maybe have just forgotten, let me regale you. Each episode we spin the spinnerouski. It is a wheel of names that might belong to the woman who so generously shoved us into the ugly club all those years ago. And the goal is that eventually we will land on her name so we can thank her properly.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Mr. Patrick, you ready to rock?

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Let's do it. I brought the wheel up all the way from Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

You had to Did you take a U-Haul?

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

That was a delay. Alright, Mr. Patrick, spin that roasty.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Around it goes. Looks so nice in the sun. Sarah with an H.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Sarah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Okay, I'll stop doing that. Sarah, thank you so much. I can see that being a Sarah. I can see a lot of Sarah's frequenting the um the highbrow establishment known formerly as Boomers in Pewkey, Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

Yeah, it's definitely got the Sarah vibe, especially the the downstairs Sarah with an H. I can I can see that being on the show.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Yeah, I agree. So Sarah with an H. Thank you so much. Thank you for living rent-free in our heads. Thank you for giving us the ugly club, and thank you for uh just being amazing. That's all I gotta say about that.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Yeah. Maybe you run into Sarah in Door County.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Oh, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Just saying that just be on the lookout for a Sarah, okay? And report back next week.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Steve, let's do some shout-outs.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

No. Okay, yeah, I think we should. Awesome. You want to fire it off first?

SPEAKER_02 54:03

Yeah. I'd like to shout out, kind of it kind of puts me in this uh, you know, I'm on a little vacation mood, so um mode, I should say. I want to shout out work benefits. You know, for all the joking around that we do about work and how you know everyone I think essentially likes to find things to complain about with work in general, but like I know for sure that we both enjoy the work that we do. Uh it is really uh a pleasure to get some time off work and to be able to spend time with family.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

And obviously, like benefits-wise, if those of you that are fortunate to be able to work full-time and get benefits with your organization, you know, health insurance obviously is the is the true blessing because we can't take our health for granted. But I truly do really love me some PTO and vacation time. It's something I think to look forward to and helps break up the monotony of working the day in, day out, week in, week out. And it's something just to look forward to, whether you're doing a staycation or you just have a day off and do whatever you want, or you're able to go travel. Just want to uh shout out the uh, you know, the labor force for all the work they did years ago to allow employees to have some time off.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Heck yeah, man. I uh I definitely agree with that. Uh what is that? Uh distance makes the heart grow fonder, right? And normally you wouldn't say that about work, right? But I think there is something about being able to step away and then come back and have a kind of a reinvigorated zeal about what you do. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Oh yeah, man. Yes, that's really cool. I agree. What do you got? I agree. Nice job, work, work benefits. Way to go. Yes. Um, I I don't want mine to sound uh sappy or anything like that, but um with this being my one-year anniversary at the organization I am with, which is in healthcare, I would like to give a shout out to all healthcare staff around the world. Um having been fortunate to even share the space with folks that are in the healthcare industry, I sincerely I'm I am blown away by how incredible all the men and women are that do this day in and day out for the betterment of other people. And I do have family that are nurses, so I know they're incredible. I know they are incredible, so in transitory process, I know that the rest of the people are incredible, right? Um, so if you are in healthcare, I say thank you, you rock.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Well said, that is a fantastic uh shout out because yes, they are the real heroes.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Yep, and now if they could fix my face.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Hey, there's you know there, you know, like they say there's mysteries of the world. That's kind of one of them. I just don't know if it's gonna be a cure for that one.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

I don't know why. I thought you were gonna say they're healthcare workers, not miracle workers. I just I don't know why. I had it right in my head. I had it right there, right there.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

I'm already I'm already won NA Beer Deep, Steve, so you know forgive me. I'm on I'm on vacation time here.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I I felt like I could hear the Bob Marley slightly playing in the background, but all right. Well, I don't want to keep you any longer from the uh the Ailshire clan. Uh Ugos, that's it for this episode. Thank you again. Thanks for coming. We'll see you next week. And um, I believe now is time. Now, this is good because you're outside. You have to make sure you sing nice and loud for all to hear.