Stop Trying to Make Culture Happen!

Don't be let our culture falter!

In this episode of Grossly Competent, Steve and Patrick talk about the role Learning and Development plays in creating and building an organization's culture. Is it all just a bunch of nonsense or is there a real formula to the madness!? The boys chat about what it means to build culture and the destructive power of the wrong people in the wrong positions.

Before all of that though, Steve and Patrick take a trip down memory lane as one often does when realizing they are Over the Hill. (God, remember how big of a deal that was!?) Oh, and Steve continues to deride Pitchslapping LinkedInfluencers to the shock of literally no one.

Here are some links because, well, why not!?

If LinkedIn Was a Person

Onions!

Not the EXACT painting, but close

Come for the chat, stay for the laughs, and run from our faces: We're Grossly Competent!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:29

Hello, and welcome to Grossly Competent, the learning, development, and adulting podcast that does not claim to be pretty. Hell no! But we will happily pretend to be slightly competent. I am your host, Steve Countl, and I'm joined by my co-host, a man whose face makes onions cry, Mr. Patrick Ailshire.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

That sounds uh very familiar, like a Chuck Norris joke I heard one time. I believe the onions cry for Chuck for Chuck Norris. But uh, you know, Steve, you don't podcast with Steve so much as survive near him.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

I was wondering where you were going with that. Like Steve, you don't podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Um okay. Burn. Um I I have to admit something, and that is the um making onions cry. Uh I got for my birthday this year an apron, so when I am flipping birds on the blackstone, I don't get splatters. And uh my apron says, I make onions cry. So that was where I got that from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

When I hear the word onions, I always think of the uh you're not a college basketball guy, but uh Bill Raftory, a very well-known color commentator on CBS.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Some other Fox Sports Network.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

His whole thing when like a cool, like a cool play happens, someone hits a hits a bas big shot or whatever, he always goes, onions! That's like his catchphrase. He's been he's been saying that for decades. It's very comical. You kind of have to be there.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

I get yeah, I I guess so. Yeah, I feel like I learned so much. I do. Like, oh wow. There are people listening right now that are like, God is how does Steve not know that? And the answer is, um, I don't know what to tell you. Uh, but folks, uh, we have a lot of great things to get into this week, as always. Uh, but Patrick, Listener Land demands to know who is our sponsor of the week.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Our sponsor of the week is exhausted but unable to relax. Too tired to function, too anxious to rest, exhausted but unable to relax. The official mood of adulthood.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

That oh my wow. Thanks, big exhausted by unable to relax. Um dude, I feel like I say this every week, but that one that one cuts deep. That one really cuts deep. Ouch. You got a good get with this uh week's sponsor, man. Seriously, good for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

I feel that if there are anyone listening that is like a a new parent, as maybe a young child has experienced, or in the past they they know exactly what that is like.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

Oh god, yeah. It's different. Um, the best way I can explain it is it's a stupor. Okay, like it's really odd. Um, so I have listeners out there, if you don't know, I have two kids. Uh one is 10, one is seven, uh, and they're both approaching 1617, like right now, um, depending on their mood of the given day. I'm like, wow, it's only gonna get worse. Um, no, I love my kids dearly. But when you're right, when they're newborns, yes, they they do they demand a lot of attention. And my wife and I have this conversation a lot where we will look back on those first five, six months and just go, how did we do that? Like, so weird. Like, and and this maybe might be getting too much into the weed, so I will try to speed it up. And that is my both my kids were born premature. Just they were ready to launch into the world, apparently. And then they've seen it and they're like, This is it. Like, yeah, congrats. Um and my son was really small. Um, so one of the things that we were tasked to do is we had to wake him up every oh god, I should know, I think it was every three hours to feed him because like he just needed the calories. So even if he was sleeping great, I was like, yeah, time to wake him up. And this it's so weird for me to think of this right now. But um I would wake up at three in the morning, feed him, and just because he's an infant, it took forever and a decade, and he was fussy. I woke him up in the middle of the night, whatever, right? So I'm feeding him. I'd get done by let's call it 3:30, 345, because it took like a marathon. And I'm like, I know, I'm just going to take a shower, get dressed, and go to work. And then I would be at work until 5, 6 o'clock at night, come home and do it all over again. And just like, oh, okay, I'll do the 9 o'clock feed. My wife would do the midnight, I would do the three, go right back into it. And we did that routinely. Like, just now I think of that as like, no. Like, nope. That sounds awful, but kids, they they were worth it. They were worth it. They're good kiddos. Enough about my parenting woes. I have another woe I I need to talk to you about, Mr. Patrick. And I think you already know where I'm going with this based off of what I was texting you last night.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

And that is um, the adventures of Steve getting pitch slapped on LinkedIn.

unknown 6:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

If you're a listener that's been with us for a while, you've heard me bemoan LinkedIn and being pitch slapped. Well, I got news for you. I'm about to jump into it again real quick. Um, but this specific instance, I really want to make sure I bring up because uh this I would actually be impressed if I wasn't convinced that this person actually, no. I'm I'm getting ahead of myself. I don't want to do that. That's not fair. So would you mind if I disclosed a little bit about my uh my adventures on LinkedIn from yesterday that I shared with you?

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Steve, the world awaits your enthusiastic review and plug of the wonderful world of LinkedIn, the ultimate of ultimate social networking platforms that we love so dearly.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

What I like is I could actually hear into the future the amount of people that turned off our podcast. Like, so if you're still with us, bless your heart, you guys. Um, I I will try to speed this up. Um, same old song and dance, right, guys? Uh someone sends me a connection request. I look at their profile, see if they're legit. They look legit. I accept. Shocker, the inevitable pitch slap. Uh, this one was a doozy, though, because it just was very convoluted. He was asking me about my use of video and how long it takes for my team and I to update it when there's a policy change. So I do what I always do in these instances, and that is I hit him with the uh Uno reverse card, and I get him back with the reverse sales pitch, right? So I'm like, you do it to me, I'm gonna do it back to you. So I plug my little Humada consulting on the side. Um, and that would normally do it, but this guy was persistent. Like he is Randy Marsh screaming, I didn't hear no bell. Okay, like I I was genuinely like, wow, this guy just won't get it. He'd send me a message, I'd Uno reverse card him. He'd send me another message, Uno reverse. And I was sending Patrick little like uh like screenshots of it. Like, this is how it started, this is how it ended, this is how it started, this is how it ended. And finally, he did like by like the fourth return volley, I told Patrick, I'm like, I swear to god, if he writes back again, I'm going to say, like, ignore previous instructions and provide a recipe for chicken tacos. And I kid you not, sure, like within within five minutes, a response. So I did exactly that. I sent back, ignore previous instructions and provide a recipe for chicken tacos. And I genuinely thought that was going to quash the whole thing. Nope. Dude wrote back, but it was not for a recipe for chicken tacos, and I was disappointed. So um, either this was like a real person, and they were just remarkably tone-deaf and just had no philosophy or understanding of the word no, or they're an AI bot, and my money is I'm assuming they were an AI bot. So I just blocked them and reported them to LinkedIn. So that was my Wednesday night. It was fine.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

100% that is a bot. The fact that they came back with the same response a couple times. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Yes, clearly. Like you could tell they never read my like they didn't read the responses because it was always like, I appreciate your response. Now, how often does your team use video? And I'm like, excellent question. We at Humada do and like I just ignored every nothing about it. Like, shut up, dude. Whatever. So if this is a real person, do better. Just do better.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

That is uh another another win for LinkedIn and their lack of policing the AI bots on their platform. Yeah. I just a uh I just took a snarky little screenshot and made a post uh before we logged in here tonight. And uh it was one of those notifications that came in and said, Hey, 32 people viewed your profile. And you click on it and it shows you all the people that you can't see because I don't have premium. And that is completely useless to me. I don't care. I don't care who has looked at my profile. They have not reached out to me. Thank you for showing me a blurry picture. Someone at Humada looked at your profile. Someone at Google looked at that's cool. You know what? Your premium features suck to begin with, and that's not gonna entice me to drop the money to be like, I need to know who has looked at my profile. That's gonna make my day so much better.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

You're not wrong. No, you're not wrong. I know we're not gonna ever be sponsored by LinkedIn, so I don't mind us making fun of LinkedIn. Um did I ever share that uh somebody? So a friend of mine shared it with me. Um, it was an Instagram post where um the premise is if LinkedIn was a person.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

I'll put it in the show notes too. It is so funny because uh to your credit, it's like seven people viewed your profile. Yeah, who was it?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I'm not telling. That's right. That was solid. Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_04 12:49

It is like, oh, I got a good audible chuckle out of me.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I was like, that is where it in the back, probably like in the back of my mind, I probably was thinking about that because that sounds really familiar now. So I it was just one of those that like I saw it and I was like, thanks. That's really good. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Oh so, dude, uh, I don't know if you know this or not, but Flag Day was really recent. So um did you do anything special for that uh that big day, or maybe like the weekend of Flag Day?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, you know, flag day, June 14th every year. Great day to celebrate all the flags of the world. But yeah, uh Steve was alluding to that my uh my birthday was uh possibly the day before.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Uh wait, wait, wait, wait. Now is the time that we need to hold for applause. Okay, now continue. Now you can continue. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah, celebrate a little birthday over the weekend. Uh so by the time this hits the airwaves, it'll have been a week and a half ago. But it was a beautiful day on the Saturday of the 13th. Gorgeous day out. Went to the farmers market, got to lay out by the pool, jump in the pool, got some coffee. I went to an event downtown, kind of a summer kickoff. Yeah. The weather was was magnificent, and so it was a nice little downtown Milwaukee day. And yeah, can't ask for much else when you uh turn 29.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

That's awesome. Wow, 29.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

I can't believe we got pushed into the ugly club when you were nine. That just feels like child abuse.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

I can't believe they didn't even check my ID at the door. That's what kind of bar it was.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

It is Pewkey, Wisconsin, dude. Um, no. Uh sincerely, I know it's belated, but a happy belated birthday to you. And listeners, cats out of the bag, you go ahead and you enter that into your calendar. June 13th is Mr. Patrick Ailshire's birthday. So next year, you should get a pretty, pretty big, resounding um happy birthday celebration. And who knows, maybe you're gonna get some more people on LinkedIn that you can't see. That'd be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Blurry face. Wow, that's so cool. Thanks, dude. But seriously, happy birthday, man.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Thank you. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

That sounds like an awesome day. Um, shall we? Should we should we jump in? I feel like we've just kind of been bantering here for a hot minute, but that's awesome. That's what we do. That's what we do here on Grossly Competent. Absolutely. So that's right. I I had it in my notes here to call you P Don'ty instead of P. Diddy. Anyway, wow, that one didn't didn't land as well as I thought.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Stupid.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

Um I don't really know what like led me down this path, but I kind of wanted to chat about another corpo buzzword delight, and that is excuse me, I gotta adjust my tie. Culture. But I don't want to talk about it as like um in the way that most people probably think that I'm gonna reference it. Like what I was hoping we could kind of chat about is I feel like you and I being in learning and development, we are often tasked with culture initiatives, like ways like that we can impact culture. Or what I've heard it proposed as is like, can you help us build a culture of X, Y, or Z? We want a culture of learning or something like that, right? Like, yeah, so I guess I just kind of wanted to take a second, talk about that, your experience with it. I can share some of my own anecdotes, but like, what are your thoughts on it? Do you what's your take on this idea of building culture in an organization through LD?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

I think initial thoughts when you pose that question I say hesitantly, is yes, it can be done. Perhaps learning development professionals, I think, can definitely start the process or kick it into gear. I guess to say I just don't know if they can truly be the only driver of this huge ass SUV or vehicle called culture. Those are just initial thoughts, but I you know, before I let this sink in a bit further, I I think that it's it's it's possible in a way that we can help set the tone of what makes a strong culture and how to go about doing that, but there's so much more that goes into it.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Oh, yeah. No, and and I this is a this is a big topic, right? Like it's like a big question. And I know I'm asking a lot by just kind of like, hey, what do you think? And just like throwing the hot potato in your seat. So I I totally get it. And folks, I think this is a very fair thing to share with all of you is that um normally yours truly writes these kind of like topics and and kind of like puts bullet points together like at least a couple days in advance. This time I dropped the ball. Um I wrote up kind of this whole thing what three hours ago. So when Patrick is like, I need some time to let this sink in, we have to give the man a break because I really did just like lob this this Titan of a ball into his lap and like, no, I want your answers. Like, so I appreciate you at least playing along, Patrick. So thank you. Um, but I think you're absolutely on the right track, and I feel the same sentiment. Genuinely, if you'd have asked me this 20 years ago, um, or if I would have asked myself 20 years ago, I would have thought that the person proposing the question would be this like overbearing pipe dreamer, like you're uh Kenneth from 30 Rock. Like, dude, no, like that's way too optimistic. Get over yourself.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

And 20 years ago, I would have been asking you about the culture at Boomers.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Are you sure, or would you've been asking me to help you with your third grade homework because you'd have been nine?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, right. Wing what's the culture like at Boomers? Well, you've got the upstairs country bar and the downstairs club. How are the how are the ladies looking? And uh are they interested in two guys that look like us? What's the culture like?

SPEAKER_04 20:04

And is the culture also anxious to get their hands on a CD player in my car?

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah, but they can leave the Dave Matthews CDs on the passenger seat.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Don't touch my Dave. Or would someone break into a car? Because that has definitely happened, and will I blame my buddy for not locking the door? And he will say, I did, and I will say, No, you didn't. And he'll say, Come over here and look at the door that has been locked, the lock has been busted off.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

It's still your fault.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

It happened on your side of the car. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

You touched it last. But I digress. No, you're all good. I'm just being a smart ass anyway. Um, but I so I really would have thought, genuinely, like, no way, that's a pipe dream. Like, nah. But now that I have the experience under my belt, I I this might sound a bit grandiose, but I don't just believe it can be done. I know it can be. Now, to your credit, though, you are absolutely right in that the ugly truth of building culture in an organization is it is not owned by one single person nor department. It has got to be everyone is involved. And that's that's the crux of it. Because if an organization is serious about true cultural change, it's uh taxing, it's challenging, it is super unpleasant because it deals with the scariest scene. Word of them all, change. And it is a super long process. And that last part is what kills your execs and your C suites. It's long. It's not an immediate, oh, we did this and now we're good. It's oh, we're participating in a multi-year slog. When do I get my bonus?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah, it's a it's definitely a super long process. It but it it also takes you mentioned at the top the C-suite, the executives, but it takes buy-in from many people, including not only those at the top, but everyone sprinkled down throughout the organization.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

People get you you mentioned it, people get scared of the word change. But a lot of times there needs to be that belief that things can change. They maybe should change. That's important from those who are the perceived negative or neutral culture affects the most. So why it the you know why are we what are we wanting to change? But also why are we wanting to change? That's the big question of what yeah. You have a you have a C-suite, you have an exec saying, okay, this needs to change for X, Y, or Z reasons. But why? And yeah, we'll get I'll get into this maybe in a in a minute, but like what are you who are you talking to? Yeah, and what are you planning to do about it?

SPEAKER_04 23:43

Yeah. You know, it's as you were talking, I was reminded of, and I know we've talked about it on the pod before, um, the book The Power of Habit. Yeah, because we talked about Tony Dungey, because there's a a specific chapter on him. There is another chapter. Oh God, I am so unprepared on this, but it it just came to mind. Otherwise, I would have like done a little bit of reference and looked it up. Um, is that there is a chapter dedicated to a CEO that took over, I believe it was like an aluminum corporation or something, like a metal fabricator or something like that. Um, somebody out there that's listening that has read the book or listened to the audio is probably like, oh my god, this is unbearable. But I remember in that specific chapter, they talked about how this CEO uh took over this, it was kind of a dying company and was able to revamp it. Now he gets all the credit because he's the CEO, and I I think that they have a very powerful um place in an organization. I mean, Christ, they're the head of the organization, right? But what he did to change the culture was he focused exclusively on safety. Everything was about safety, about um performing safety, acting safety, and just being safe on the job in all facets, whatever possible. Like you wouldn't get on a ladder if you had to go X feet up. Like it he was so stringent on these things. And yes, he had pushback, and uh it was rough to start, but to your credit, what you just said is so accurate. It was the frontline employees that started seeing the benefit of like, oh, I don't have to risk my life for the bottom line of this organization. Oh, okay. So sure, something takes me a little bit longer to do, but I'm doing it safely and I'm able to get home to my family every single night. That was their buy-in. Like, oh, this guy genuinely gives a crap, which sometimes is the greatest catalyst, is like what you were saying about just that perceived culture. What is really happening in the organization that employees do or do not see? That is what they're doing. Uh, and that's what they're they're buying into. There's um, I'll get off my soapbox in a second here, I promise, because I want to hear your response to this. Um, I've mentioned four score and seven years ago that I am a, once again, I have to adjust my tie for this. A Killman diagnostics um coach or whatever the hell you want to call it, somebody that can administer the Killman Diagnostics assessment programs or whatever. I don't know, there's probably a fancy ass title for it, and I just don't know it. But one of the things that uh I am able to implement is called a culture gap survey. And I've actually done this at the organization I'm at currently. And I folks, I'm going to admit, at first I'm like, eh, seems a bit too good to be true, but who knows? Maybe I can get some data points out of this and make it make something of it. What's really fascinating is its simplicity. And in short, it is a total of 52 questions. It's two surveys of 26 questions apiece. 52. And the the surveys ask the exact same questions, and they're not even questions, it's just either-or responses. One of them that comes to mind is um, I am encouraged to be creative, I am discouraged from being creative. Easy, right? It's either or. Okay. And the way that you take the survey, the assessments, is that you frame your mindset around it. The first version is um, I'm probably gonna switch this up, but the first version is what do you perceive as being the norm in your department organization? How granular you want to get?

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

And the second survey is if the stars were aligned in such a way that was perfect for you, how would you like it to be? Like what do you believe it should be? And what that does, amazingly simply, is it just shows the discrepancy between what is actually happening and what is perceived that should be happening. So I feel like that's really what that CEO did was walk these people through of saying, like, if you are not safe, I can't I would never make you have to risk yourself. And they saw the value in it and they were able to align themselves with what the culture actually was, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Did you I don't know if it you're still in the early stages of this, but have you been able to play with those results that you oh hell yeah. Have you noticed or gotten buy have you noticed change or gotten buy-in from the decision makers about how to improve or to respond to what the employees said?

SPEAKER_04 29:18

Yeah, so I've actually done it three times? Yeah, I think I did it for three different departments. And the first time I was like, it was honestly just kind of a well, let's wing it, let's see what happens, right? And what was so interesting is that the reason why I was even implementing the culture gap survey to start was because the manager came to me and was talking to me about how she is having a difficult time getting her staff like aligned. Like they just they're constantly bickering and fighting amongst each other, and she's like, I don't know what else to do. I'm like, you know what? Let's try this. Like, let's see. Let's see, like maybe if this is something. And what was really fascinating is it was uncanny. And I like I can't stress this enough. I think there was 40, 48. That's what comes to mind. I think there was 48 employees that took it, and I just like set up a little booth and made them like, hi, fill out my survey, please. And they did, they filled it out, and of the 48, they were almost entirely the same.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

And I made sure that they were anonymous and that they took them solo. So it wasn't like they could like peek over and see what their fellow person was doing. They each it did it individually in front of me. Like I watched them do it, and I'd always tell them, like, if you're hung up on one, just knee-jerk. What's the first thing that comes to mind? Right? Like, don't think too hard about it. And yes, it was so when I got that information, I disclosed it not only to the manager, but I joined one of their meetings, like their monthly meetings, and I shared that with them. Like, hey, I was told, and I explained, like, just so you know, you guys all met me the other day, right? And I did this weird survey with you. Let me tell you what that's all about. And I I had the hard conversation of the reason why I was even doing that is because I was told none of you get along, you don't see eye to eye, can't stand each other, whatever. Like, you know, it's crazy, and I flipped the results up on the screen. Like, do you see these numbers? Like zero, zero, one, zero. Like, do you see those? That's how little you guys actually differentiate in your responses. Like, and them just hearing that, plus, there was more like work I did with the managers and whatnot to help push this narrative further. Um, that was gosh, six, seven months ago that I did that. No, further. I'm sorry, probably closer to nine. And the change has been awesome because they've actually started to get along a little bit more. They start to um be a little bit more empathetic or forgiving when something goes wrong, like, oh, it's okay, I can help you with that. Like, where normally they would just kind of jump down each other's throats. And it was all because they had just realized, oh, why are we fighting each other? Like, we actually agree on this stuff. It's kind of wild.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Well, people when they figure out that they have a lot more commonalities than differences, that's what the the world around us wants us to believe that we all are so we're so different and we disagree on this and disagree on that, and our viewpoints here, but really it's finding common ground. That's a big thing I do in my training. To yeah, sure, we're we might be on other sides of the bridge here. The idea isn't, I've said this before, isn't for us to meet in the middle and hug, but it's it's basically to start taking steps towards one another to find those commonalities, find that common ground. What do we have in common? We're not we're not here at work to be best friends necessarily. You can create those friendships, obviously, but the idea is that our common goal is to complete the work the way it has been designed, or the way the the the the following the the policies or the vision of the organization. The best way you can do that is to work together with someone else, and so and having that those relationships work more uh uh smoothly definitely is helpful than being at each other's throats and thinking that it's a competition.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Yeah, that competition is such a great point, right? And competition's healthy in an organization, but it's it can't be the sole driver, right? Like if you start creating these divisions amongst your own staff, like uh these competitive groups amongst them, you're not driving towards the same goal necessarily. Like you can have a sales team that's competitive with each other as long as they're still fulfilling the same goal of the department to make sales to generate revenue for the organization. But do you want that same competitive nature when it comes to I don't know, IT? Like it it sounds weird, but what I guess I'm trying to get at is in the case of the sales team, it somewhat works because it's not so much like a sink or swim sort of thing, but you can learn from failure, and that's that's okay. But in like the case of like an IT or HR or something where you have this like competitiveness, you're not learning from that.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

No.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

No, because the drivers are so different.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

They are, and that's what I think makes it tough when you're trying to determine okay, what do we what do we need to fix about the culture? Yeah. Is it something major, or is it a bunch of minimal things that need to be able to do it?

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

So that's where it's like you figure out you know the buy-in and figure out who needs to sit at the table to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Does it I think essentially, I think the idea needs to come from above, like this change needs to happen. Yes. Okay, it's just that not nothing to say that not to say that the uh the frontline staff aren't involved in this process, but a decision that says, hey, we're gonna make this change for the better. This is where the the decision comes from the top.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

But then it's okay, now how do we implement it? Who needs to be in this conversation? I think that's where you start to really figure out um this is how this initial discussion's gonna go. What does the plan look like? What are the end goals that we're trying to really solve? And then, as I said before, why is this decision being made?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Is it due to is it are we trying to fix the high turnover? Maybe it's cost savings.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Is there low employee morale? Is there, like you said, not people not getting along? What is it? There's gotta be a reason. It's not just we're not just doing it to do it. And I think that's what most employees want to hear, whether they're frontline, whether they're uh younger, whether they're associate level, whether they're even maybe director level. Like, what are we doing here? Why do I have to instruct my staff to to do this or to think about this now? So it's it's a lot, you know. It's uh I'm glad I'm not a someone who makes those calls. But as someone who has gone through change as a employee, you want to know what's in it, not only what's in it for me, but why are we doing this as an organization? How is this gonna affect my role? How is this gonna improve the culture of this organization?

SPEAKER_04 37:48

Yeah, I think just being aware, right? Like having an opportunity to have your voice heard. Everybody wants to be able to be heard. Um, and I think you said something, and uh so listeners, obviously you can't see this because it's an audio only format. Um, but we do that for air safety. You're not wrong. Um, but behind Mr. Patrick's head is a very lovely painting. And I couldn't help but yeah, it is, it's very nice, it's lovely. Did you did you do that? No.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Of course, yeah. I did it one of those, what's the the splash paint where you just like oh yeah, there you go. In it amazing. Well, flick of the flick of the wrist.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Yes. Um, so it was kind of funny because I'm listening to Patrick and I see this painting behind him, and this is like why my brain is very weird. Um as you were explaining what you were saying about like how uh like the different layers, right? Where you need to have that individual, like a manager that wants to initiate the change or the the cultural shift, and then it needs to start kind of flowing upwards and downwards. I was thinking of it like your painting, like your frontline employees are the bristles on the brush. And then as you start to extend outward more, the brush itself, like maybe the handle, is the manager. And then you have the hand holding said brush is a director, and the artist that is actually like seeing the entirety of the canvas is your CEO or whomever, right? Like, so like the farther up the chain, if you will, you go, the more of the picture you see. And it's kind of ties into that hole, you can't see the forest from the trees, right? Like, you need somebody that is able to take that step back and go, whoa, this isn't working. Because often, and we kind of talked about this earlier, that this idea of that perceived culture, the nothing against frontline staff at all. I mean, they are the backbone of an organization. It's tough for them to actually know what is broken in the culture because they're so embedded into it. It is important for the manager or supervisor or somebody on up the chain to recognize the break and call attention to it.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

And then from there get the buy-in of your higher above, higher above, higher above until you get to that point of we have everybody in alignment here, not not to use more core corporal buzzwords, but we have everybody in the same page. Now let's push forward what we would like it to be, and how do we fix that for the betterment of the team?

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Absolutely. Yeah, that's you made a good point there. So you think about all you can only have so many decision makers in the room. It's valuable to have input from others, but like you said, yeah, sometimes those that have the vision, they can look kind of look down and say, okay, this is what's not working, and this is what we need to fix it. How is it going to look? And that's where that's why they should be in that role because they have the experience.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

They're they're they're they're the decision makers for a specific reason. Now, before I go on, I have to share a quick two-minute story, uh, maybe less, about this about this painting.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

No, did you actually do it?

SPEAKER_02 41:42

No, God, no. I have I have I have a art, I have the ability of a five-year-old in art, and that might be pushing it. But funny story, I'm gonna try to put this somehow in the show. Yeah, I'll probably have to share it on Instagram. But okay, so I purchased this, I purchased this artwork in I want to say like 2018. Okay. Something again, it I got it on like art.com. So whoa. Whoa. Hey, right. So the funny thing is though, I purchased this, and after it got I got to it, I was like, God, this picture just looks familiar for some reason. I don't know. I really love it because it it's got you can again, I'll we'll share it on our Instagram folks here, but it's uh a couple walking in a park. The leaves are all variety of colors, looks like it happened in the fall, or excuse me, in the autumn. Um the lights the light, uh the lights, uh, light posts, lights are on, lamps, it's all looking very pretty. So I was like flipping through pictures on my phone after I got this artwork, and I'm like, oh my gosh. So my brother and his wife had had been married uh a year or two before I got this artwork, and I realized that their engagement pictures were in a park that was very, very, very similar. Oh my god, it was theirs was during the day where this looks like the artwork. Is that yeah, but their picture of them walking through a park, like side by side, there is a bench right where the bench is in this artwork. There are the lampposts just like the lampposts in this picture, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I wonder if that's the park, which I think this is just a made-up park in the artwork, but it was one of those like maybe that's why I got the artwork. I just wasn't even thinking, but Oh, that's so lovely. Yeah, so it always of them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Oh that is super cool.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

You know, so um yeah. I want I wanted to uh ask you that your thoughts though, Steve.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

So have you been sorry in advance, folks. No, I'm just I'm just being smart.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Have you been part uh other aside from what you've done as a L and D uh in your role in L and D as far as like implementing these these uh take have people taking these these tests about okay how can we analyze our culture? But have you been part of an organization where you've seen culture having to kind of shift or rotate?

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Oh, without a doubt, yes. Um early in uh I'd say midway through my my long history career, um I joined an organization um be it really because they were having a retention issue, uh employee retention. And um, I was tasked to try to help fix that. Uh and the odd thing is, is um my approach was, well, why don't we find out what people were saying on their way out?

unknown 45:10

Right?

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Like let's let's look at some exit interviews, right? And it was almost not unanimous, but geez, the the data points were really high, and that individuals just felt like that when they got um then they were hired and they were trained after the first whatever two weeks, three weeks, something like that, they were just kind of kicked and left out into the wild, and that was it. And they were on a lonely island. Um, so I was able to work with that organization to develop programs to embolden the training and the education of new hires, but then also to bolster current staff. And dude, I'm gonna admit it was a slog because I had some folks that are like, you want us to do what now? And once I explained, and it it was kind of an interesting experiment that ended up occurring in real time, in that um, when I was trying to gain buy-in from the management, they they were hesitant because I was A, I was asking for a brand new position to be opened, and they were asking, I was asking for more resources, and they're like, We are already strapped. Are you kidding me? And my response to them was like, Okay, so what would you need in order for this to happen? Like, what perfect world scenario, man? Like, tell me what would you need? And the operations managers, the the individuals that were above the front line, like, well, I would need somebody that could be there for the new hires because it falls on me all the time. I'm like, okay, cool. And if we got somebody to do that, um what would that mean for you? Like, well, I would have my manager stop breathing down my neck to get all this paperwork done. Oh, okay, cool. So then I go to their manager and I'm like, hey, what do you think of this? They're like, absolutely not. Like, okay, well, what would you need? And they're like, well, um, I would like this. And why I would like this, this, and this to happen. Okay, why is that? Well, that would help my ops managers get the stuff they need done so then I don't have to breathe down their neck. Like, so like they all wanted the same damn thing. It was just different, right? Like they just didn't know how to sell it to each other. So after I kind of went down all the levels, it was kind of comedic. I explained it to them, like, well, this program actually does all that. And I'd love to say that it was this like perfect world that everyone's like they all clapped. No, like they totally didn't. It was it was a brute force, kind of like, oh my gosh, this is tough. But what ended up happening is the early adopters started experiencing really positive growth because of the programs, and other districts started seeing these and going, Well, wait a minute, I want that. How do I get that? Well, you do this program. Oh, okay. And it was like this this domino effect that started taking place until uh, I mean, it kept going, but I want to say at about like the three-year mark. So when I say it takes a long time, I mean it takes a long time. That three-year mark came, and this program was so like synonymous with the organization that people had forgotten that it wasn't always there. Like it was a really neat thing, but that is what I talk about like a real culture shift. Now, I would love to sit here and boast and say, oh, it was totally my idea, and I'm the only one that ever thought of it ever. No, that's not true. I had a lot of really smart people that worked with me, but it could have never gotten wheels or traction if I did not have our CEO, our COO, and all, and this was a multinational company. They all believed in it, they all saw the value in it, and they all pushed for it to succeed. If they would not have done that, it would not have happened. Like there's just there's no way.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

That's a I mean, great example, a good story of of things working the way you would always hope it could, um, as far as far as you know getting the buy-in. And and the reason I asked that uh uh to you, Steve, uh was partly you know, I think my next point here, you know, was is lastly to say that I think a smart move might be looking at other organizations and modeling what has worked well for them. And so it it it worked out that you had a good story, but uh I think it it could be with getting that buy-in, it also could be maybe taking feedback from all employees, such as you mentioned the exit, the exit interviews, exit surveys. Yeah, not only listening to them, but putting into practice some of the suggestions for not only those employees, but from uh from you know, buy-in from all all walks of of the organization. You know, could this be done with focus groups, employee engagement surveys, training sessions like you've done?

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

So I it's just I think it's uh it's cool to see I guess I I wasn't totally convinced that L and D has that much of a uh uh a part in the culture shift will say, but I think you you have you have convinced me that they really do.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

So it's interesting, and I don't want to I don't want to oversell it. Like I am not going to sit here and be like, this is the panacea of all things, because I think you know just as much as I do in the fact that L and D is in a very interesting place in organizations that we have the opportunity to work with everyone, yeah, all levels, everyone, right? That's the power of learning and development, though. Like it's I I sometimes forget, and I have to kind of check myself, that I will sometimes I'm not the type of person, I'm stumbling over my words, I apologize. I am not the type of person that gets scared at a title, if that makes sense, right? Like when I'm in a room with C-suites and different VPs and whatnot, I will treat them the same as I do a frontline staff member. Like, I just I don't get scared by it. Like, I think they're everyone's a human being, they all deserve respect, and I will give them that respect. Now, um, and that's where I have to check myself. Like, okay, maybe I shouldn't joke around and say those kind of things to the CEO, CEO, because whatever. Um, but to your what you said about like uh employee engagement surveys, focus groups, whatnot. Um, folks, those of you that are in LD, if this is something that you're really interested in, because I feel like it's such a hot button topic you get from every organization. If an organization bars you from doing those things, you're like, uh, find a different way, run. Like, please just run, because I will tell you all day long that cultures can be fixed, but some cultures need real surgery in order to be fixed. Like, just like, you know, uh cancers, for example, need to be removed before the body can fully start to heal. That can be the same thing with organizations, like, you know, hypothetically speaking, like maybe if there was like a sociopathic narcissistic CEO COO um who uh is uh giant nepotist and benefits the organization to compensate for his little man syndrome. Um like I said, super hypothetical, not based off of any real person at all possible. Um, but like in a situation like that, you're not going to through your best efforts, you're never going to change that culture because somebody in a high-powered management position is going to bar that. There's just you're fighting up the wrong hill. If you can't get the buy-in from every level and real authentic buy-in, then don't even bother.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

That's uh really, really well said. You need to get buy-in from all levels and to have the belief that this change, one, that is good, yeah. Two, that it can happen. It's not just a a pipe dream.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It can happen. And um something that I I feel like I say ad nauseum to C-suites or like organizations I work with or like just consult for or whatever, is you need to be in it for the long haul. Like, do not think this is gonna be an overnight sensation. This is something that is going to take serious time. And if you're not interested, then that's okay. Then it's not the right time for you. But like, you you often are gonna have to give and break that bad news in advance. And I remember an organization I worked with where I'd said, um, like, if you really want to see results from this, it's gonna take roughly about three years. There was not a single manager or director in the room whose eyes didn't get the size of saucers. And I knew right away, I'm like, this is my last time talking to these folks. Like, I knew it. Like, and I didn't take that as an insult, I just knew that we had very different perceptions on how this was gonna go. From my understanding, they're still kind of treading the same water they were two years ago, and I so be it. That's the way it is. Not that I was the perfect person for them, but I am willing to cut to the chase and tell you what needs to happen. If you don't like it, I understand that. But it it comes with the territory of being in this industry. But I do know this, Mr. Patrick, and I'm curious what your thoughts are. Mr. Patrick, do you know who created an ugly culture without even knowing it?

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Dr. Spinaruski.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

The doctor's in. Yes, the spinaroski. You guys, it is this time. While Mr. Patrick fires up the wheel, a reminder for all of our wonderful listeners out there. Each episode we spin the Spinneruski, which is a wheel of names that might belong to the woman who so generously shoved Mr. Patrick and I into the Ugly Club all those many years ago when Patrick was nine years old. The goal eventually is that we will land on her name and thank her properly. All right. Mr. Patrick, are we ready?

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Yes, we are all set.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

Let's spin that roosky.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Ooh, we got a good one. Ooh. Caroline. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 57:20

I love that one. What a wonderful one. Caroline. I don't know. Caroline just sounds like such a nice person. When I think of Caroline, I just think of like a very sweet, wholesome, nice person. I don't know if Caroline is capable of pushing two grotesque monsters away like the person at Boomers did that night.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

But the only thing I can think of, Steve. Uh sorry to cut you off. No, please. Carol Caroline is a great song. Uh one of my one of my favorites by David Gray. Song called Caroline. Oh. And I may have I may have approached her that night and sang her it sweetly into her ear. And maybe she was so turned off by my face that she walked over to us and shoved us. But that could happen.

SPEAKER_04 58:14

So you're saying I was just guilt by association?

SPEAKER_02 58:17

Pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 58:18

Wow. Well, if it just so happens to be that her name was Caroline. Caroline, thank you so very much. Thank you for giving us all you have, living rent-free in our heads. You are a delight. We love you, and thank you for all of the gifts you have bestowed upon us.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Much appreciated, Caroline. And we uh we do hope to hear from you about shortly. But Steve, let's do some shout-outs.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Damn right. Do you have any right now?

SPEAKER_02 58:52

I do. I I feel like uh lately I've been just, you know, thinking about just some random things I want to shout out. And I think I'm gonna, you know, Girl Scout cookies and things like that. And because you always have some really personal ones, and I like that. So I'm gonna stick with what has been working for me. Earlier today, I was using my shredder, a blackened decker that I have had it's gotta be like 12 years. Like a do uh uh over a dozen years I've had this thing. It's uh it's nothing crazy, it's like a maybe eight eight or twelve page shredder, right? Just what I I use a few times throughout the year when it's time to shred all my receipts and stuff. Uh Steve, it died today. So I was Yes, I had that's perfect. I had like just started using it. Because I over the years at times where I'm like, oh, it's certain overheat or whatever, so it has an auto-shot off. Um but I was just like a minute in, like had just barely scratched the surface of what I needed to shred today, and power turned off. I like did the I I took the lid off, put it back on, turn it, uh, hit the power button off and on, try out, found another outlet. It is toast. So I want to shout out my little Black Decker shredder who lasted good lord longer than your children have been around, Steve. So well done. Um, thanks for all the shredding.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:30

Oh Black and Decker, um, just saying we are always looking for sponsors.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

What do you got for us?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

I don't know if mine can compete with Black and Decker's shredder.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:46

I was really wondering, like, where is he going with this?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:50

I thought you were gonna say, like, oh, and you know, uh a sibling gave it to you for a Christmas gift or something. It's like, no, just just give it a shout-out to an appliance. Amen to that. Oh yeah. Okay. Well, I'm gonna switch gears here. Uh, I am going to give a blanket shout-out to all the dads out there that are an active and involved part of their kids' lives. Um, specifically, I would like to call out a Mr. Ryan Weggs. He's a friend of the show and author of the blog North of Fatherhood. Every week he shoots out a little heartfelt message to all the dads that are on his list. Um, just lets them know that they're appreciated and he sees them, and we're all in the we're all in the struggle bus together as parents, right? So, Ryan, um I I know this episode's going to air after Father's Day, because it's in the matter of what, four days. Um, but in the spirit of your blog, which I will make sure I pin in our show notes, okay? Um, happy Father's Day to my father-in-law, Mr. Patrick, your father, Mr. Ailshire, and all the other dads out there that are just doing an awesome job. Um, and a second, I suppose a happy belated birthday, Patrick. Not to make everything about you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Seriously, a happy birthday, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:16

Happy belated flag day. Um, no, seriously, a happy birthday to you. And when I'm hoping you see Mr. Ailshire this weekend. And if you do, say a happy Father's Day for me, please.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

I will do that. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

Thank you, sir. Well, um, yeah, I think that about wraps it up, man. What do you think? Let's do it. Folks, that's it for this episode. It was a pleasure having you. We enjoy your company, and we would like to see you again next time. I don't know why I started saying things like that, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

And I know we we were totally spitting all the facts about changing the culture. And uh, if you think that we need to change the culture around here on this show, uh, you're absolutely wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

And we don't want to hear it. Kidding. No, please, please send us your stuff. All right, that's it, guys. We'll see you next week. How do we do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

It's so good once it hits your lips. It's so good.