Flying Into the Invisible Curriculum

In this episode of Grossly Competent, hosts Steve and Patrick dive into the psychological world of Invisible Curriculums as they present themeslves in professional environments. What are they? How do they come into being? What do they mean? And what type of effect do they have on the growth of employees and the company overall? Join the boys while they dissect this topic to give you a better understanding of your own professional environments.

Speaking of environments, Patrick shares his newfound respect of mosh pits and spares no expense slowly and carefully chirping at Steve into explaining why this episode was recorded off-schedule. And it's definitely 'for the birds'.

Interested in some of the topics covered? Here are some links for ya!

• Avatar and their toe-tapping song 'Hail the Apocalypse'
• The Doorway Effect or Location Updating Effect
• The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• Navigating the Hidden Curriculum - Notre Dame Learning
• Julie Menden - Executive Forum extraordinaire
• Sara Valentine - HEART LEadership Podcast (Say hi from Steve and Patrick!)

Come for the chat, stay for the laughs, and run from our faces: we're Grossly Competent!

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Mindful Drinking Starts Here - Hang out without the Hangover.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:29

Hello and welcome to Grossly Competent, the learning, development, and adulting podcast that doesn't claim to be pretty, but will happily pretend to be slightly competent. I am your host, Steve Countl, and I'm joined by my co-host, the unfettered spawn between Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys and the toxic Avenger, Mr. Patrick Ailshire.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Well, thanks, Steve. That's a very creative way of saying you're a little intimidated sitting across from me every week. Yes. Which is fair. I'd be nervous too if my co-host was clearly carrying the competence portion of the title.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Right, you are, Mr. Patrick. You definitely carry that. I carry the first portion of our title. Well put. Can I give you a little bit of background? When I was trying to come up with your introduction, I was reminded of some of our outro singing and how you'll do the thing right. And I was like, oh God, I have to say something with the Beach Boys. And I don't know why. The Toxic Avenger like stuck in my head too. So I'm like, what if we could take the voice of Brian Wilson and the looks of the Toxic Avenger and just kind of smash them together? And then there was you, Mr. Ale Shike. Yeah. That was a good, that was a good mix, good a good combination. This is what goes through my head when people are thinking, like, what is he thinking about? That is what I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

When Steve can't fall asleep, he does not count sheep. He just comes up with criticisms for his co-hosts.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

And then I write them down. And then the next day I'm like, what is this? It's like looking at Charlie Day's dream journal. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Okay. Okay, on that note, real quick. So at work, I have started to I wanted to. There's always something that you want to like try to get a little bit better on. And this isn't necessarily just a work goal. It wasn't a work goal, but it was a well, it wasn't a goal that I created for my employer. Like, okay, I've got three goals this year, right? This was just a like personal work goal. I said, okay, I need to get better at taking notes. I sure because I I'm typically just a post-it person. If stuff, you know, I obviously there's there's emails to look back on and teams messages, but as far as just like little notes from meetings, I'm like, I need to get better at that. And because I will look down sometimes, like a few, like a day or two later, at my note, my post-it little scribbles, and like, what is that? And a coworker of mine told me about using OneNote because we use Teams at work and Microsoft. Yeah. So I started using it the other day. I had a one-on-one with my boss, and it was awesome. I had I typed everything out. I like looked back at it later. I knew what I wanted. And part of the reason I brought this up is I had a post-it that I looked back at last week before I started using it. So it was like a reminder, like, okay, it's already March. Start doing what you wanted to do. Get organized. I had a post-it that said, ask Peter about like crap. Like, what was I supposed to ask this guy about? So that was where I'm like, okay, it is time to get a little bit more organized with my note-taking at work, so I don't look like a complete idiot.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Ask Peter about my ADHD.

unknown 3:49

You know?

SPEAKER_02 3:52

I uh yeah, I'm a OneNote fan. I love that. Maybe sometime in the future here, like I don't know, a month or so, after you've used OneNote, or maybe something else strikes your fancy, we do an episode on like ways to be organized, like some of the tools that you and I like and whatnot. That could be pretty cool. Yeah. Awesome. Well, folks, we have a great episode. I uh I I'm excited to have this conversation. Patrick is the one that brought it up, and I'm like, hell yeah, let's do that. Sounds great. But for first, first thing we should do is of course, we need to know Mr.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Patrick, who is our sponsor of the week. And this week I got our sponsor, a little birdie that told me about our sponsor. Pretty cool. Today's episode is brought to you by standing in the kitchen for no reason. You're not hungry, you're not cooking, you're just there. Standering standing standering. Standing in the kitchen buffering in human form.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Wow. Thanks, big standing in the kitchen for no reason. Are are you notorious for doing this at all? Do you do you find yourself doing this on a regular basis or not?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I don't as much. Generally because I live in a 565-foot square apartment. So if I go to the kitchen, it's typically for a reason or another, but there's yeah, yeah. I mean, years ago when I was in a different space, it would just walk into a room and kind of be like, why am I in there? What did I come in here for? Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

There is a oh, I was reading something about this, gosh, a couple months ago, but there is an actual name for that. Like there's a psychological phenomenon that takes place. It's something like door. I'm screwing this up, and somebody out in listener land is probably like, you're an idiot. That's not what it's called. But I'm gonna just wing it. Something along the lines of like doorway syndrome or something like that, where when you actually leave a specific space and move into another, like your whole thought actually switches over if you don't have intentionality with what you're doing. Like if it's a passive idea and you you go through the process of moving from space to another, that's why you'll get the like, why did I come in here again? And then you turn around, you start going back, and you're like, Oh, that's right, that's what I wanted. Like, it's almost like like a Wi-Fi connection for your brain, like, oh no, and too far out. Oh, that's what it was, and then you remember you're intentional about it and you move forward. So I joke with my wife all the time on this because she will do that all day. She'll just randomly get up, start walking somewhere, and go, oh, what was I gonna do again? I just sit there and watch her, like, okay, this is great. She'll sit back down, she goes, Oh, that's right, and then gets back up, starts walking, and like she'll start about to do it, like, no, wait, this isn't what I wanted to do. It's like, oh gosh, oh heavens, okay. Not to say I am the pinnacle of perfection. My god, I do plenty of ridiculous things, but I feel like I catch her on it more than she catches me. But maybe I'm just yeah, no, that's is what it is. Sure. Patrick, I I have a confession to make, and I think you will understand how much this pains my soul to admit this.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I I just I need to confess it. Did you did you lock yourself in the bathroom? Oh wait, wait, wait, no, no. You looked at an eclipse. Was no eclipse recently? No. Well, okay, now this is gonna be I can't believe you're bringing this up on the air, but uh did you happen to break into my 1996 Jeep Cherokee outside of Boomers, steal the CD deck, but flipped your way through my CDs and left all of them for me?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Oh no, I had I had paged through that CD visor before, and I I did not feel a need. No, no. Let me I I need to give some context here. Okay. I had the distinct pleasure of having a former guest of the show, Jess Cohen. She came on site to my work to provide a really great session on Clifton strength. That's one of the things that she certified as a coach. And she did awesome. I had no doubt in my mind she was gonna crush it. She just really nailed this. However, she led things off with an icebreaker. And at first, when I saw her doing it, I was going, but it was awesome. It was really well done. And it was such a simple exercise, too, because this was a group of individuals she's never met before. So it just started very simply with what's your name? It was three parts what's your name? And what are you paid to do? And what is a word that somebody could use to describe you in a positive light? And what I thought was interesting is she's like smashed it down right away. She said, No, I don't want your job title. I want to know what you get paid to do here. So it really forced people to kind of like switch their frame of mind instead of being like, I'm the director of learning and development, to be in like, I'm here to make sure that people receive the education and experience needed to further conduct their job as successfully as possible. So you kind of had to like rephrase it, and that really led itself into getting people in the right frame of mind for what she was going to be covering for that session, and it just hit so well that I was I was impressed. And so I legit liked an icebreaker, and I I hate to admit it, but it was god, god I it this like my worldview is shattered, dude. It was so well done. I even took notes on it, like, oh, I am stealing that. That is really good. And it wasn't a post-it note, it wasn't like good ice break. I actually like wrote it out like oh, I like this. So it was that's where I I have to give credit where it is due.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I'm glad you I'm glad you said that, and I'm glad you shared that. You know, as our our friend Michael Scott once said, Well, well, well, Holiday Turn Tables. Or another band you may be familiar with, The Birds, oh this one called Turn Turn Turn. That's true. They did have them.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

So in the spirit of having our worldviews smashed and broken apart, has there ever been a time that you've had that, Patrick, where you've had this firm belief in the workplace, or personally, it doesn't matter. And just one instance, one single event or a statement somebody said just completely shattered it, and possibly for the better.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

But Steve, that's a really good question. You know, off the top of my head, I don't have, I don't think there's anything that stands out in regards to the workplace, but I do have something that comes to mind personally. So, listeners, as Steve and I say occasionally, we do apologize if we share certain stories more than once. We are getting into that age where we may repeat stories multiple times and we can't recall if we've actually talked about it before. So I don't know if I've brought this up before, but it's an experience I took a lot that I uh took a lot away from.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

So okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

I'm gonna kind of do a summary of this so I don't go too much into the the weeds, but I was visiting a buddy in California and unbeknownst to me, he had an idea in mind to make me as uncomfortable as possible to help me get more comfortable, apparently. It was like it was my New Year's resolution before I even knew about it. And so he took me to a show, a a heavy metal show. And I, knowing that I am not a heavy metal person, he picks me up from the airport and he says, Hey, I said, What's going on for the next few days while I'm here? I was really excited to see him. Yeah, and he goes, Well, I've got a concert tomorrow. And I said, Okay, well, where is it? He goes, Well, it's gonna, it's it's at Berkeley. And I'm like, Okay, perfect. I said, Well, I'll uh I'll I'll probably find a sports bar around there and watch some games. He's like, Oh, well, I got a ticket for you. I'm like, okay. It was a band called Avatar. I I was not familiar with them. I am familiar, yeah. Kind of it was like the the like circus type theme. I don't know if that's right, kind of yeah, so that's accurate. Takes me to that show, and I went in with this idea of like having a thought of how it was gonna be, and I was gonna really dislike it and whatever. And first of all, the I had I enjoyed the show, I thought it was pretty good. But there was a a moment where there was like a little mosh pit going on in front of us, and I was I made sure to stay back because I was like, I don't want any part of this. And I was kind of looking at my buddy and he was kind of coaching me, uh essentially like this is kind of what's going on here. And so I because I my whole idea of mosh pits was like just angry people bumping up against each other, trying to start fights, and he made a really good point. And he said, you know, he goes, a lot of these people come to the show and he's like, Yeah, they might be might be stressed out about work or they just there's a lot going on. And he goes, It's honestly, it's a really the like respectful thing that happens at these events. And I said, like, really? He goes, I want he goes, watch this because it one started for me. He goes, watch when someone falls over, and sure enough, within like a minute, someone fell over, someone grabbed the guy's hand and pulled him back up. Yep, it was like uh you know, it wasn't a battle royal WWF type thing. And I was like amazed, it didn't get out of control once. It was no one swinging fists, it was just people getting their aggression out or just bouncing around with the music. Yeah, and I kind of going back to why I this uh brought this up was the your whole thing of like having an idea about something with the icebreakers and like always just really not liking it. And I had the experience personally where that was that was cool, and it definitely changed my outlook on things of not have you know, not until you experience it. Yeah, oh yeah. Bounce back. Oh, I I know you're you're more into that type of music than I am, I digress.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

No, no, no. Uh I I've never heard that story, so I've clearly our listeners have not either. That's awesome. You you raise a really interesting point, and I think uh music has that way of having those stereotypes, and oh, if you listen to this, this means oh you you must be angry or something like that. I I agree with you in that there's uh there is us in the circles call it moshpitic where there's an actual like etiquette to it, and those that don't abide by that get ejected relatively quickly. It's it's pretty interesting, it's like its own social microcosm. I uh I now sport a shirt that says I used to mosh and used to is uh in the past tense for a reason because that is a young man's game. Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, that but oh yeah, in my uh my teens and twenties, oh yeah, I'd have been out there with the best of them doing the body surfing and everything else. But yeah, it's it's that's fascinating that you had that experience. Seriously, that's that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

It was cool, you know. It wasn't a wasn't an Eagles concert or anything like that, but it was, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

I only know one song by Avatar, it's called Hail the Apocalypse, and it has this really goofy catch to it. And my or a good friend of mine and I, we say it's a toe tapper because it's just one of those you can just kind of bob your head to.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Is there a s am I getting the wrong banner? I have this random song that comes to my mind with that. It's like ladies and gentlemen. I don't know that maybe that's them, maybe that's not.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

It just I have this it very well might be because I mean, when I say I know one song of theirs, I only it's not like I've heard other ones, it's just this one song happened to come on when we were on our way down to Chicago for an ACDC concert, like god, 10 plus years ago, and it just came on his like serious XM. Like, oh, this is a toe tapper. I don't know who is this, and from there, that's like the only song I know of theirs. But I so I'm familiar with the band in that right, so you and I've seen like pictures of them, but that's that's really it. Got it. That's wild though. Oh wow, no, that's that's cool. That's cool. God, we could talk about a concert to music like that, I feel like for a while. I love that kind of stuff, so that's that's my jam. And I know you're a big concert goer too, like you love music, so that's you, you know, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

A lot of and I love Eagle Eye Cherry, the birds. Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Oh, I know what you're doing now. Oh man, it took me way too long. You are such a dick.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Okay, okay, listeners. Okay, I I'm sorry it took me so long to figure this out. What Patrick has been so subtly referring to is so we are recording on Sunday morning, where normally we record on Thursday night, and that reason is because 10 minutes before we were about to jump online to record, I am helping clean up dinner for my kids, and my wife says, Do you hear that weird noise? And we just we live in a ranch, whatever. And I like no, I don't and then I stopped, and I did hear it, and I thought it was my son just like fidgeting in his chair because he like can't sit still. Like, it's just huck moving his chair, dude. Like, just and she goes, No, because as soon as I said that, he just stood up, and then we heard it more, and it sounded like this like rustling from the like down by the hallway where my kids' bedrooms are. And my thought is, oh man, is there like is there an animal? Like, what's going on? Like, is there something on the like the screen? I don't know. So I start what and my wife's like, you need to go check it out. I'm like, okay, fine, I'll I'll do it. That's cool. So I walk over there, and of course, it's dark, right? So I flip the lights on, and then I hear it again, and it's really loud coming from the bathroom that's right next to my kids' bedrooms. And I'm like, what is that? And you it just like almost sounded like a lot of like scratching and and movement that was going on. Yeah. Now, some listeners out there may or may not know this, but I was in the pest control industry for like 12, 13 years. So hearing these kinds of things, I can typically know the difference. Like, oh, that is just like nothing, or no, that is a full-fledged animal. Okay. So I I hear this noise again. I'm like, oh no, that there is something in the vent, like in like that's going into the bathroom, because it would like stop and then it would start up again, like really like blah blah blah blah blah. But I didn't see like anything on the floor, nothing. So I'm like, what is happening? So I'm trying to figure it out. I I'm using a flashlight, trying to look in there as best I can. I don't see anything. And my wife, who it was a smart idea, she called my neighbor who happens to be in the HVAC industry, and is like, hey, would you mind just helping Steve try to figure out what's going on there? She's like, because I'm not helping with this. Like, I am not, if there's something that falls out of that vent, I am not catching this thing. Yeah, I'm like, oh, what the hell? And there's a tried and true check. So, folks, I promise you, you're gonna walk away with something, okay? And that is there's a little trick that pest control specialists will do that we teach them, and that is if you hear something in the wall and you're not sure if it's like an animal or something like that, if you knock on the wall and it stops upon you knocking and then resumes again, that is a vertebrate, meaning it has something that has a backbone, it is something that has a nervous system, that kind of thing, right? If you knock and it just either continues or it's just very random, that could be it's either nothing, like oh, it's the wind, or it's an invertebrate, like say wasps, something like that, right? And the reason being is because vertebrates have a fear response. When they hear something new, everybody typically stops and listens. So I did that, and it didn't stop right away, but it did stop.

unknown 21:37

I thought, oh, what the heck?

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Like maybe it is something, like it's gotta be something. So my neighbor comes over, he helps me dismantle the the vent. It w it was it was nothing. It was in fact, it was the wind. It was the wind hitting the the dampener, and that's that's it. That's my story. And I gotta tell this was like an hour of us like trying to figure this out. We're using blowers to blow things up. Absolutely nothing, nothing happened. And the craziest part is it stopped as soon as my neighbor came over. Like, as soon as he walked in the door, I'm like, oh my god, it just stopped. And that's kinda like when you go to the doctor and you're like, I feel better. Yeah, this sucks. Yeah. So I texted Patrick as soon as this was happening, and I'm like, I'm sorry, there's a bird in our vent. And he's like, oh my gosh, don't kill the bird. I'm like, I I'm so glad your priorities are on key. After like an hour, hour and a half of doing this, he did. He texted me. After an hour, hour and a half, I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe this was literally nothing. So I send it to Patrick's like, so that was there was nothing. And he's like, sounds like a story for the podcast. But I thought I was gonna get away with not having to explain that. And here I am. God, that sucked. So there we go, folks. Wow. I since we're only about a half an hour in, should we like talk about our topic?

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Yes, let's do that. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah, all right. So, listener land locals. Uh, Patrick is the one that introduced this lovely topic, and I thought it was really cool. So, you know, actually, Patrick, I would like for you to do the honors because this one really resonated with me, but this is your topic, and I want you to have all the the honors and credit.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Sure, definitely. And I would love to just give an overview of the topic itself. We're gonna talk about this obviously in the LD space, but I want to give a broad definition of the topic itself stems from more school age and our the way back, go back to the way back machine when we're in elementary school and things that were taught in school and in in high school, et cetera. So the topic that we're gonna talk about today is the hidden curriculum, which refers to unwritten, unofficial, and often unintended lessons, values, and perspectives that students learn in school, such as obedience, social norms, expectations, yeah, culturally specifically. It was formed by a gentleman named Philip W. Jackson in 1968. It shapes student behavior and reinforces social hierarchies. It can disadvantage minority or first generation students while influencing academic success. And I do want to point out I got that information from Notre Dame Learning American University et al. And I want to just before I kick it back to you, Steve, I want to point out some key features of the curriculum itself. So a lot of them are it's key aspects. So it's implicit lessons on social rules, hierarchies, as I mentioned before, time management, obedience, etc. It has an impact on learning. So it influences student self-worth, attitudes towards authority, academic performance. There's that inequality reinforcement and often mirrors existing social inequalities by rewarding behaviors aligned with dominant culture norms, classism, things like that. There is a role of teaching the teacher environment transmitted through teacher behaviors, classroom organizations. So think about like seating assignments, school policies. And then lastly, some specific examples would be learning how to ask for help, navigating classroom rules, and implicit messages about cultural importance. So now that you've got the uh the encyclopedia or Google definition for those of you that are born after 1995.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

No, I seriously, well, thank you for going over that. That's sure that's awesome. And I think that gives a really nice context into this topic. What I really liked about it and why when you proposed that we talk about this, why it just like really resonated with me is yes, everything you said pertains to the classroom, right? Like we're talking we're talking about student, but this is a cultural thing that happens in organizations as well. Like, yes, it we can see an L and D, but it's just professionalism overall. There is not an office that this does not exist in. And I've I've said it in the past, I'll I'll say it again. I really love when we get into like the psychology of learning and organizations and how those little things work. Yeah, honestly, maybe I I should have been a psychologist in of you know a different life, I suppose. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Well, you you sure put the psycho in a psychologist. Wow. I'm actually that was that was rude. I I mean you that I mean that in the ugliest of ways.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Hmm. I I really set myself up for that one too, didn't I? Like but I I do I really find that kind of thing extremely fascinating because I think that everything has these layers to it. Now, uh I'll admit that this kind of concept didn't really cross my mind, like being a young adult venturing into the workforce at all. But two things in my life happened that really kind of prompted this. Number one is that I worked for an organization that showcased one culture or spoke about having one culture, but really led with another. And the second thing is that I learned more about these kind of unwritten concepts as it pertains to the culture of an organization through being a TK TKI certified individual in conflict management. So, one of the things that they talk about in there is how culture really helps shape how individuals manage conflict in the professional environment. So, Badrick, how about you? Like, have since you brought this topic up, I'm assuming you definitely have some experience with it, or how did this kind of concept come into like your conscious being? Like, where did you witness or experience it or not at all? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, it's and it's interesting that it's it's not something that I can I've I've thought about it in terms of what are some more topics as we we've hit our quarter century mark of episodes and you know, special last week, and like okay, what are some things that we can continue to maybe revisit or to go to talk about for the first time and expand on? And that's kind of where the the thought and the idea came from. Now, in as far as my work experience, I I don't know anything as current in my current position, but I could definitely come up with some examples of you know what life was like in school as a student and even a classroom teacher. And I never really understood when it was happening as a as a student or younger person, but it seemed to make a lot more sense as an adult when I look back. Case in point, when I was a teacher down in Austin for a brief just a semester down there back in let's say 2015, maybe, I was teaching elementary school, but their history books were just a smidge different from what the what the content what from what I learned up in a student in Wisconsin. You know, I don't want to go too far into the weeds here, but I I do recall some information in these Texas textbooks. Say that five times fast. I was just thinking that too, like wow, okay. That on when the when the topic broached the Civil War, it wasn't exactly what I remembered learning as a child. And then No way. Yeah, yeah. And as a side note, total quick little soapbox here. Yeah, they have their own pledge of Texas. Did you know that? Wait, like the like the Pledge of Allegiance. Of allegiance, yeah. But it's no, that's the pledge. They have a pledge of Texas. So give me 30 seconds to explain this one. So I got down there uh first, you know, week before school starts, you go through all the teacher orientation, stuff like that, and they said, Oh, by the way, just make sure you you you say the pledge every day. And I'm like, Yep, pledge of allegiance, got it. And they're like, Huh. Well, no, the Pledge of Texas. Excuse me. Yeah. So it's basically verbatim, except it's a little change. The I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state under God. Excuse me. No, Texas, I love ya. Okay, I love ya, but I don't, I don't love that.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Like, that's so fast. I never knew that. Wow. We're gonna have somebody from Texas like, yeah, doesn't every state have that?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Though again, I lived there for a year and a half. I I love my time down there, but everything's bigger and better in Texas. They love themselves down there, they know it, okay? They have their own pledge, and it's one state under God.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

And wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Give me a friggin' break here, okay?

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Come on. Oh man. Yeah, huh? Oh, yeah, you learn something new every day. Well, so like that is it's so I I was blown away by the just the differential of like talking about the Civil War. In the US, you would assume that everybody would kind of be uniformly taught that, but I suppose southern states probably have a bit of a different curriculum, like, and again, we we won't we won't go full full boat into that, but no, no, yeah, a little different uh a take on like from our vantage point, you know. Sure, yeah. Um what really fascinates me, even probably more so than that, is the this this pledge of Texas, not because it's just so unique, at least in my opinion, that I think it lends itself to that that culture shift, right? Of like it's right starting to lay that foundation for students to be like, yes, you're a part of a greater nation, however, you yourself are individually special because of where you are right now, like it's this implicit kind of culture thing that is that's really fascinating to me. And that kind of ties in this is gonna be a little goofy, but because I'm gonna pull out of the classroom setting and kind of go more towards the organizational standpoint, yeah. And I'm gonna tap into the Thomas Kilman conflict mode instrument, which is TKI, that's that certification I was just talking about. Yep. There is a section of that where they talk about written and unwritten cultures or rules of cultures of organizations, and the way that they phrase these is in two terms strategy structure and reward system. Now, strategy structure is something that everybody listening to this podcast is familiar with. That's the written black and white when you get hired, or when somebody tells you you did something wrong and they point to a policy, that's strategy structure. Like you cannot wear ripped jeans and slayer t-shirt to work, like it's written right there, dude. That is so that's just like it's establishing the foundation of what they want their culture to look like on its face. However, the reward system is the unwritten, it's those things that when you're sitting there with a friend and it's two in the morning and you're just chatting it up, and they're like, hey, so like really tell me what's going on at work, and you're like, you really want to know? That's the reward system, like that's the unwritten things that happen. Like it might be if you want stuff done, you don't go to the CEO, but you need to go talk to Al because Al is really the one that runs this place, even though the CEO pretends that she does. Like, so you you have to kind of abide by these things, even though it's not written out that way. You have to look at it and go, Oh, you you learn it through usually trial and error or somebody kind of warning you. That's the reward system. Does that I hope does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yes, yeah, okay, yeah. I'm glad you pointed those two things out because it's a it's a good way to look at it. Like there is that difference, sometimes maybe a little more subtle, but it it's it is there for sure. Yeah. You know, and I I want to give a shout out to my organization. This is kind of kind of in that same ring, so I don't want to jump too far away, but you know, we we really at my organization practice what we preach, at least from leadership on my in my department. I don't know if it's like that elsewhere, but the idea is that we have this whole like thing about being authentic, being your authentic self. Be as comfortable as you're comfortable with at work. Okay. So I don't think there's any like gotcha or just kidding when it comes to let's say like work-life balance, which I'm a huge proponent of, especially coming from the teaching industry of doing stuff around the clock. In my role in L and D, the expectations are that you work your normal hours, what, eight to four, nine to five, and and that's that. But now outside of my department, maybe the message does get a little foggy. You know, you and I both are facilitate on topics such as coaching, active listening, delegation, etc. Yeah. If we share that with people leaders or employees and they take that information and do exactly nothing with it, they still treat their employees in ways that go against what the company preaches, then I guess that becomes kind of a misnomer of sorts.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Oh, yeah, without a doubt, right? Like that's kind of the culture is a very difficult thing to shift in an organization. Uh a much smarter man than I am, which isn't really a high bar, but a much smarter man than I am. He once told me that it takes roughly three years for a culture to truly shift in an organization, like from start to finish. And the idea is that the first year is simply just introducing the change itself. And the second year is where the change is actively being employed, and the third year is kind of just maintenance, because by that third year, people have really ingrained it into themselves that oh, this is the culture, this is what it is. So when you have those things that you facilitate, like on active listening, and people go, Cool, I checked the box, I did it, and then they just go back to doing what they were doing. Yeah, that doesn't that's there's a reason for that. Like there's a reason why they don't do that. And I would this is where I'm gonna kind of get back to my my classroom roots, is it's kind of that whole Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And folks out there, if you're unfamiliar with that, is that's that little like triangle pyramid that you may see. That the bottom foundation of it are all like your very primitive needs. You need food, you need water, you need shelter, and as you continue to move up, it's more the needs are more focused outside of that purview, like a need for self-fulfillment and and things like that. So if you take that into context with like what Patrick was saying and what I just kind of reiterated on, how on earth, if your basic fundamentals in the workplace of survival, like if if you can't even hit those, then how on earth are you going to give energy to an educational session trying to help you expand further on something that's just way out of your purview? Like, if I'm currently having a difficult time with, I don't know, just trying to think of an idea off the top of my head, uh, effective communication or leadership development or something like that. If if I'm having a hard time just keeping sane in my work, like in my life at the moment, then I'm not giving any of that any credit. Like maybe the workplace is so toxic, it's overly political, it's hostile. You're trying to navigate those waters, everything else falls to the wayside. That's that hidden curriculum. Like that you you're saying, well, we offer these classes, but great, you need to fix the culture here first, dude, because nobody is going to care or even attempt to put those feet forward if you don't actually show them that it's okay to you in as far as effective communication or emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Like I think I'm getting uh kind of wrapping myself up here, but I I think you get the gist of where I'm yeah, and I yeah, I uh yeah, a couple things come to mind when you were saying that I love I loved your point about the the time it takes for a culture to get established. Yeah, that just that brought me right away to just I kind of laughed in my head when you were sharing that about I was thinking about with sports, okay. Like, can that tie into like the sports culture? So, for example, a new head coach comes in, okay? But the sports, the sports world is a what have you done for me lately, right? So coaches get fired after one year, two years, three years before maybe they've even had a chance to establish the new regime, the new, because it could be a completely different playbook. It's gonna be a completely different offensive, defensive style, no matter what sport you look at, football, basketball, baseball, whatever. So I love that point of like I just went to that where it's it's different, obviously, in the corporate world where yeah, and I know there's a lot of differences between that, but that I wanted to mention that as well. And then what you were saying, too, about the the the point of like behind the scenes, okay? You we do that in in my organization too. It's when we fill out, we have employees that are requesting training. Usually it's going to be some sort of supervisor or department head, yeah, putting filling out our training request form. We make them do that because we want to see why they need training. What's it for? Because sometimes if they just say, Hey, can I get training on this? We might look at what you said, Steve, is is it training or is it managing that you need? Because you it's not gonna fix itself. So, yes, you can send your you can send your employees to this to have have better customer service, but if you're also micromanaging your team, that might not help because they're gonna be crabby and hate their job and hate the experience. I mean, I think working in a crappy work culture sounds completely exhausting. I've been there in my teaching days. Yeah, it's you know, I it's the reason you breathe a sigh of relief when the traffic light turns yellow and you get to stop at the red light. It's the entrance door of the building slamming shut behind you, sounding like a cellar door closing harshly. Yeah, micromanagers, as I just mentioned. Yeah, it's just yuck, as what Gen Z says. Yeah, yeah, that's yuck.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, is that what they say? They say that? Okay, okay. We uh the good thing is I don't think we have to worry about any Gen Zers listing. So there's that. According to our Spotify data, our our greatest age demographic is the millennial. So thank you, millennials out there. We really appreciate you. I know you've been given a bad rap, but we we love you. But I I think you're right. That's a very fascinating thing that you say about the the sports, like right with like with coaching and whatnot. Um there's a book, The Power of Habit. Are you familiar with that book at all?

SPEAKER_00 42:20

I I feel I've heard of it. I have not read it.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Yeah, it's an ex gosh, I think it was published like 10-15 years ago. Sorry. You know what? We'll pop it in the show notes because I'll admit, I listened to the audio book and it was really well done. Really enjoyed it, and surprisingly, there is a section on that, or in that book, excuse me, an entire chapter where it talks about Tony Dungey. And if you're familiar with the NFL, Tony Dungey is a Hall of Fame coach. He led the Indianapolis Colts to a Super Bowl, like just good stuff. But it wasn't all Sunshine Rainbows when he got to Indiana. Like when he first started coaching there, it was awful. And part of what's really fascinating is when he came on board, they looked to him to fix it, and he did. He had a very unique set of how he wanted to fix it. He wanted players to rely on habit and just kind of relegate it, like instead of having to think too hard on things, yeah, they wanted to force habit. And the first year they tried doing it, it failed because people resisted.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

The second year, people finally figured it out and things clicked and it worked. Like it's a really fascinating story. So, uh, listeners out there, if you're an audiobook person, I highly recommend it. Or if you're you like to have the tangible book in your hand, get the book. It's really good. There's a that chapter is phenomenal, it's such a cool little perspective. But the reason why I Bring all that up is you can't fix a culture that doesn't want to be fixed. And when we're talking about invisible curriculums, that culture dictates what can and cannot be taught andor learned. So if you have a micromanager, you're really telling your staff that I don't trust you to do what you need to do. And they're not able to learn how to be self-sufficient. You're teaching them to be reliant on coming to you for every little thing, which for most people would drive them crazy. But for a micromanager, they use it as like a badge of honor of oh, my team wouldn't be able to manage without me. Dude, you did that to yourself. Like, yeah, you're the one that did that. Stop it. Like, so there's that interesting dynamic of kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, that's completely true. I've had so many conversations in in the LND space about that management versus leadership style. And of just like because again, it's not gonna, it's not going to training is not always the answer if it's if it's if it's a little deeper than that, right? If sort of that that hidden agenda or hidden issues with a a team, a department, a division, organization, whatever. Yeah. And so we've talked about this before, Steve. People don't leave jobs. The number one reason people leave jobs is not because of money. Yeah, you're right. It's not. It it might be, if you're listening, it might be a reason you've left a job, sure. But collective from the collective employee experience in all walks of life, all organizations, money, this the studies, the science, it's not it's not money.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

It's it's because of how they're treated, how employees are treated, what the culture's like, what how they feel respected. And so I I I love that you brought that part up too, because it's just it's really interesting. And we've had this kind of goes into change management too. And you can talk all day about this, but as far as just like this is gonna take some time, we're gonna implement some steps. They're gonna be uncomfortable, they're gonna be probably frustrating. You're gonna question why we're doing it. But if you have trust on a team, you can say, hey, trust the process. It's yeah, it's it's gonna, it might get a little like Tony Dungey, it might get a little fuzzy or awkward or bad for a while, but it'll come around. And obviously, yeah, you mentioned it. The guy's a Hall of Fame coach, he's won a Super Bowl, he took multiple teams to the playoffs, and and and he's from my understanding, at least what I what I have heard again, you know, I don't never met the guy, but he was pretty well respected as a coach, yes, and as a as an individual as well. So that's that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

I do enjoy it when I see him on like the the panels, say, like you know, before the football games on Sundays. Sure. Even other players that are on those panels. I mean, he's been retired for how long now? They still refer to him as coach. It's it's just very fascinating. If you don't mind, I would really like to kind of step back to the comment you said regarding why people leave organizations or jobs, or specifically not being financially driven. I I will admit, I used to think that was the biggest load of bullshit. I I've I thought that was the biggest crock. I now where I'm at in my life, fully understand that it is in fact people leave organization or people leave jobs because of either the organization, but most often because of managers. And in a weird way, and I know somebody out in Listener Land is probably gonna think I'm full of it or that I'm I'm oversimplifying, but I feel like individuals that believe that people leave jobs strictly because of financial means, they're afforded that because they work in a place that genuinely wants them to succeed by having cultures that kind of further promote them. Does that make sense? Like it's kind of like once you have officially worked at a place that you're like, this place is a living nightmare. I will take a pay cut to get out of here. That's how you know it's bad. Like, that's where you're like, I don't the money is not an issue anymore. I will eat ramen every other day if I have to, just so I can get the hell out of here. Uh like I'll give an example, and I I don't think she would mind me saying this. A sister of mine, she worked at an organization, a very well-respected organization, made very good money, was very, very unhappy. And she ended up leaving because her department was dissolved or whatever. She ended up leaving, going to another organization, another very well-respected organization, but very different in culture and values. She took a massive pay cut, like a let's call it 25% pay cut, and has never been happier. Like, so it is really like there is proof in that pudding. And you feel free to ask people that are further along in their careers, you ask them. Like, if you could work at a place that really aligns with your values and your beliefs, like that curriculum, that invisible curriculum aligns with you. Would you work at a place like that if it meant you made less? I would be impressed if you had almost a unanimous no. Like most people would say, absolutely, where does this place exist? I want to be a part of it. Yeah. And that makes a world of difference. You know it's bad when maybe I'm speaking from personal experience. I have no idea, but you know it's bad when your son, who's let's just say he's nine. Maybe, maybe, maybe, I don't know, something like that. When your your nine-year-old son says, you seem happier, like that is like that. Oh, you noticed it too. Like, boy, you're not hiding it from anybody.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

And kids don't don't hold back, so no, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

So I can't, yeah. I mean, maybe hypothetically speaking, if that was to happen, that might pull on said father's heartstrings a little bit. But uh, I think if we walk away from this topic, kind of making sure that the listeners out there take away something, it is do that evaluation. I and Patrick, I I would love your two cents on this too. But my takeaway personally of this is just do your own evaluation of the places that you work. Like if you do not feel that it's it's fulfilling to you and that you align with the culture and like just the values of the organization, that tells you there's an invisible curriculum that's going on that misaligns with you. And being aware of that will help you start to understand what then do I need in order to feel fulfilled. It's kind of like the end of office space, if you're familiar with that movie where the main character, Peter, is in this nine to five software company, and yeah, channel nine. Yeah. But he's not happy, he's just not a happy person. At the end of the movie, spoiler alert, I know this is only like a 30-year-old movie. Sorry, guys, he ends up working construction and he's outside and he is as happy as all get out. It's just as because what was currently going on or what was going on in the office environment did not align with him, and he ended up going into a different industry and loved it. He's dirty, he's greasy, but he doesn't care. He's enjoying life for like the first time. So there it is. That's my soapbox. I will get off of it. Patrick, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on that before we we venture forward.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, that was that was great. I uh could call it on on office space, but it's it is true. I mean, I no, I was fortunate when I switched careers that it there was a lot of positives in the change. It was and and it this is no surprise or secret. I teachers don't get paid very well, they're completely underpaid. The stress, the anxiety, the amount of work they're doing. I'm gonna use that phrase, come at me, bro. If you come, you want to come on your podcast, you want to comment on our our Instagram and say, Well, teachers get the whole summer off, I will fight you. That that it's well deserved and it's needed. It's not the whole summer. Don't give me this 12 weeks. It's like six, seven weeks because there's getting service and all that. Look at it, I'm on a soapbox right now. But what I what I wanted to get to is that I was fortunate to switch to LND. I'm still teaching. I still yeah, but I you know, the my lesson planning is basically creating a a course that I offer employees. My teaching is my facilitating, but what it doesn't come with is all the other headache. Okay. The the emails I get from my my fellow coworkers are not the same tone as I would sometimes get from parents. So there, you know, there's all that, right? So I was fortunate where when I moved industries, I felt I was much more the pay was much more respectable, but also it came with more benefits. I can I can take off, I get my personal time and vacation time. I don't have to wait till the summer, wait till Christmas break or spring break. So there's all those perks there. But even if you are someone who has found that maybe your organization isn't aligning with those values, you know, that's an opportunity for you to maybe think, okay, maybe there's something better out there. And I would say that I wanted to touch on this too, because you were referring to, you know, finding what that is for you. That might take time. That's not something, unfortunately, that you may find out in the interview process. You can ask about what's your culture like here, but they're gonna hiring managers are gonna feed you. Obviously, they're they're trying to get you to see all the the bright and shiny lights, right, of the company, right? They're not gonna come out and say, Well, actually, we have a lot of micromanagement here. That might take time, but also just that also is a chance for you to ask questions. If you are an interview and you really, let's say you're at a comfortable spot and you're just like, I'm just browsing, I want to see what else is out there. Maybe there's a better fit for me, and you start to interview at other places, you have that flexibility to ask your those questions that you want to say, like that are more specific. And so that could be a whole other episode. We could do an episode of R Wing and all that, and maybe we'll we'll write that one down. But uh that sounds good. It's yeah, it's very fascinating of finding the best fit. What is that? What are things really like? You have the we know the the curriculum of our our uh our job descriptions, what our expectations are, but what are really the expectations? What are we really expecting of you? Because we can't spell some of that out on there because we're gonna scare people away.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Well, Patrick. Do you know who doesn't scare us away with their invisible curriculum? I do. It's a little thing we like to call spinnerouski. Nice. It is indeed. You know, while Mr. Patrick fires up the wheel, I would like to remind our new listeners, and perhaps maybe some listeners that have listened previously. Each episode we spin the spinneruski, a wheel of names that might belong to the woman who so generously shoved Mr. Patrick and I into the ugly club all those years ago. And the goal of this is that eventually we'll land on her name so we can thank her properly. All right, Mr. Patrick. Are we ready?

SPEAKER_00 56:39

We're ready. Spin the roosky. Here we go. Who's it gonna be? I love this.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Maya. Maya! Oh, I work with a really wonderful Maya. Oh my goodness, Maya! Well, thank you, Maya. I I really hope that is your name. And on behalf of Patrick and I, I would just like to thank you for giving us the gift of the Ugly Club and all of the generous things that have come with that. So thank you, Maya.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

What a treat. It is. I I don't know many Mayas, actually. I don't work with any, but I had a student named Maya when I taught the 12th grade. So gosh, she's probably now in her, had to be probably in her 20s, maybe it's been a long time ago. But so maybe she's listening. And Maya, you were clearly not at Boomers that night because you were probably not even born. But if you're listening, give us a shout out on the Grossly Competent at uh you know at Gmail or on Instagram. Because I imagine if you're in your early 20s, the IG is a big thing. You may not be hanging out on LinkedIn with Steve very often, but he's such a nice student. So oh that's one. Yeah, that is one of those that like you remember where it was just very kind, thoughtful to all and to all students. It wasn't just uh, you know, a kid that I had to worry about, you know. That's wonderful conversation with the parents.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

So yeah, that's nice. Yeah. All right, should we should we wrap this puppy up, my man?

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Let's do it. Well, that about does it for this episode, and thank you everyone out in Listener Land for joining us on Grossy Competent. If you like what you're hearing and you would like to support the show, here are the best ways possible in no particular order, Steven. Me, me, me, me.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

You can subscribe, follow, and give a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. You can visit us on Buzzsprout at grossly competent.buzzbrout.com. Here you can become an active supporter and help us with the show. Every cent counts and is greatly appreciated. You can give us a shout on Instagram at grossly competent. You can email us, like Patrick said, at grossly competent at gmail.com. But what we would love more than just about anything is for you to tell your friends, your family, your coworkers, or that super awesome learning and development person at your company about this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

We appreciate all of you more than you know. Any support you can throw away truly does mean the world to us. This show takes a surprisingly amount, decent amount of effort, I'll say, for two guys who look like us, and we're very grateful we get to bring it to you every week. You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Like it it is a labor of love, but yes, it it it is interesting how much time it does take. So this week for our shout out, I have an interesting one. I was on an executive forum. So let me see when's here today. Sunday, so it was last Wednesday, I believe. And uh that was hosted pre-bird madness, I believe. Pre-bird madness, yes. This executive forum was hosted by the fantastic Julie Mendon. I will make sure I include her information in the show notes if you'd like to give her a shout. She's wonderful. And on this, I met a fantastic woman by the name of Sarah Valentine, and she mentioned to me that she has her own podcast called the Heart Leadership Podcast. In turn, I directed her towards us. She definitely lost in that exchange, but I really appreciated that she was willing to connect. Like I thought that was really cool. So, folks that are so if you're in leadership and development or you're just interested in leadership things and professionalism, whatnot, give her podcast a look. She's also a buzz sprout podcast like us, so you can find her pretty easily. Make sure if you do send her a message, she has like a little notes thing. Tell her Steve and Patrick from Girlsly Competence sent you. It would mean the world to her, and it would mean the world of us. So please give her a shout. I'll put her information in the show notes. She was wonderful. And yeah, Patrick, do you do you have anybody?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

No, I just want to uh say that it was a great shout out. Sarah Frontine, we we definitely heart you and we will give wow be here all week. I'll be here. Let's hope not. All right, no. No, that's great. That was a good that was a good call.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:28

Thank you. Uh all right, folks. That's it for this episode, Augos. And uh thanks again. Thanks for listening. We will see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Ready? Yeah. Dang.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

A sermon I didn't even know was coming. Man. Feeling feeling uh JC up in here or something. Woo! That's awesome. Good stuff. Or was that like a were you trying to do like what was that Louis Armstrong?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

I was really trying to channel my like 1920s, 30s kind of musician. It's like, yeah, that's I missed my calling. You didn't between psychologist and 1920s radio star.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

My name, my name could have been in lights.